17:04:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
17:05:02 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/17-aria-at-irc
17:05:06 <jugglinmike> rrsagent, make log public
17:05:18 <jugglinmike> Zakim, start the meeting
17:05:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:05:20 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
17:05:30 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-at
17:05:59 <jugglinmike> meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
17:06:06 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-at
17:06:07 <howard-e> present+
17:06:12 <sasekg> sasekg has joined #aria-at
17:06:18 <Matt_King> present+
17:06:24 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
17:06:28 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
17:07:17 <jugglinmike> Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
17:07:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Primary focus today is on the "slider" test plan
17:07:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
17:07:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with what we've got
17:07:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday July 22
17:08:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next community group meeting: Thursday, July 25
17:08:17 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current status
17:08:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: As far as I can tell, the status hasn't changed since last time
17:08:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're at 6 plans in the candidate review phase and one in draft review
17:08:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: A couple more are coming up soon after; we'll talk more about them, later
17:09:07 <jugglinmike> Topic: Testing of Color Viewer Slider
17:09:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: NVDA looks all the way done in the test queue, but two testers and with no conflicts
17:09:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think we can mark it as final
17:09:31 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'm okay with that
17:09:36 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
17:09:48 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: There were some minor conflicts, but I resolved them by updating my results
17:10:13 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: There seem to be plenty of conflicts with JAWS
17:11:05 <jugglinmike> present+ Hadi
17:11:17 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I have 10 conflicts in total, but I haven't raised any issues, yet
17:11:29 <jugglinmike> Hadi: The issues may be due to an incorrect expectation on my part
17:11:58 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I expect that when I press "right", it reads the new value--not the current value, followed by the new value
17:12:31 <jugglinmike> Hadi: When you press "Home" or "End", it reads the word "Home" or "End", but it doesn't do that when you press "Page Down" or the arrow keys
17:12:54 <jugglinmike> Hadi: This points to an inconsistency in behavior, and I think the vendors should know that
17:13:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For the speaking of the name of the key, that is a JAWS settings thing. If you press "page up" and it says "page up", that's not a problem
17:13:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you press "up arrow" and it doesn't say "arrow problem", that's not a problem, either
17:14:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Vispero is free to make decisions about how JAWS behaves in that regard
17:15:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Saying the old value before the new, or repeating the same value more than one--those could be valid "excess verbosity" issues, perhaps with a minor impact
17:15:40 <jugglinmike> Hadi: The fact that it says, "Home" or "end", those are not the reason for the conflict. I simply mentioned that
17:16:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll have to look at your conflicts. I already see some of the behaviors that you're talking about
17:17:14 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I marked repeated output as "excess verbosity"
17:17:24 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I mentioned it with the "other" feature
17:17:50 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Would you change your results to explicitly specify "excess verbosity," Hadi?
17:19:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you make that change, Hadi, that will probably resolve the conflicts
17:22:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For me, "INSERT + Tab" is reading role, name, value, and orientation
17:22:41 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Okay, that's what I get
17:22:50 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: But Hadi gets the minimum and maximum values
17:23:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: What I reported just now was for forms mode
17:23:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: For virtual cursor mode, I get the min and max, also
17:23:22 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I don't get those. I think I'll re-test that
17:23:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you don't get them, we may have a conflict
17:23:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: By the way, I wonder whether announcing the min and max should be optional. Should it be a "may" or a "should"?
17:24:05 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I think it should be a "may"
17:24:12 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I vote for "should
17:24:30 <jugglinmike> IdaDC: I think Vispero would vote for "may"
17:24:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: IT seems like for "INSERT + Tab", it should be a "should", but for "Up arrow" it should be a "may"
17:25:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm using JAWS version 2024 2405
17:25:58 <jugglinmike> s/2024 2405/2024.2405.83/
17:26:24 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'm using 2024.2406.121
17:26:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: You have a newer version. I should update mine
17:26:47 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I have the same version as you, Matt_King--05
17:27:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think before you do any more testing, you should update to the latest version
17:27:06 <Joe_Humbert> Joe_Humbert has joined #aria-at
17:27:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This sounds like it may be an intentional change
17:27:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Now, let's talk about Safari
17:27:31 <Joe_Humbert> Present+
17:28:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I am able to replicate Joe_Humbert's findings for increment and decrement for slider with Safari and VoiceOver
17:28:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: My Safari version is 17.5
17:29:10 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I wonder if the type of computer matters. I've observed differences between macBook Pro and macBook Air in the past
17:29:58 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'm using Safari 17
17:31:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I wonder if there are some updates available for your Mac. Maybe Safari sometimes does get updated even without a macOS updates. It might happen with other software updates
17:31:45 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I can look into that. I can also test with my macBook Air
17:31:56 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: because I can't reproduce the reported issue; it works fine for me
17:32:31 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I was able to replicate it multiple times, but there was one time where I did it, it read the value. But when I immediately tried to observe that correct behavior again, it read the wrong value, instead
17:33:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think maybe they introduced a bug, and I think maybe if you update Safari, you'll see the same bug, IsaDC
17:33:54 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I will try that today
17:34:33 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: If I test it on the macBook Air and I get it, I'll update the results
17:35:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hopefully, we'll have all that resolved soon. We're really close with "slider"--that's great!
17:36:01 <jugglinmike> Topic: Disclosure plan draft
17:36:28 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I can test with both VoiceOver and NVDA within the next two weeks
17:36:40 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I can also test on the timeline of 2 weeks
17:56:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll make sure those two get signed uo
17:56:22 <jugglinmike> s/ uo/up/
17:56:43 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
17:56:43 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been howard-e, Matt_King, jugglinmike, IsaDC, Hadi, Joe_Humbert
17:56:45 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:56:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/17-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
17:56:54 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:56:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
17:56:56 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
17:56:56 <RRSAgent> I see no action items