13:54:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pbgsc
13:54:51 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/12-pbgsc-irc
13:54:51 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:54:52 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
13:56:13 <gautierchomel> gautierchomel has joined #pbgsc
13:57:01 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #pbgsc
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13:59:26 <AvneeshSingh> present+
14:00:12 <tzviya> present+
14:00:17 <tzviya> Meeting: Publishing SC
14:00:18 <ivan> present+
14:00:24 <shiestyle> shiestyle has joined #pbgsc
14:00:36 <tzviya> Chair: Tzviya
14:00:51 <tzviya> Date: 2024-12-07
14:01:13 <tzviya> zakim, start the meeting
14:01:13 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:01:15 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
14:01:21 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
14:01:56 <tzviya> regrets+ Wendy, Graham
14:02:17 <liisamk> liisamk has joined #pbgsc
14:02:48 <shiestyle> present+
14:03:00 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
14:04:04 <liisamk> present+
14:04:53 <Ralph> present+
14:05:45 <Ralph> scribe+
14:05:59 <Ralph> Tzviya: this will be my last meeting of the steering comittee
14:06:19 <gautierchomel> present+
14:06:25 <Ralph> ... this group needs s new person or two to volunteer to lead it
14:06:25 <George> George has joined #pbgsc
14:06:50 <George> present+
14:07:17 <Ralph> George: what guidance do you have for us?
14:07:39 <Ralph> Tzviya: the most important thing is that the three groups; CG, BG, and WG, continue to communicate
14:07:49 <Ralph> ... we've not been paying sufficient attention to the CG
14:09:00 <Ralph> ... if the CG is willing to work on enhancements to EPUB there may be someone willing to co-chair
14:09:54 <Ralph> George: I'd like to consider this from the top down
14:10:42 <Bill_Kasdorf> +1
14:11:58 <tzviya> ack Ralph
14:13:21 <cristina> cristina has joined #pbgsc
14:14:33 <liisamk> +1
14:14:40 <tzviya> q+
14:15:14 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:15:29 <tzviya> ack me
14:16:03 <Ralph> Ralph: I've been contemplating turning the BG into a CG, still to focus on discussions of the business needs of Publishing
14:16:11 <Ralph> ... would this broaden participation?
14:16:16 <Ralph> ... your thoughts?
14:16:21 <Ralph> Tzviya: I think it makes sense
14:16:38 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
14:16:41 <Ralph> ... it's hard to separate the business from the technical
14:17:25 <Ralph> Bill: it's been difficult to recruit Members; I get interest from technical people in big companies but the company isn't prepared to join as Members
14:17:30 <Leslie> Leslie has joined #pbgsc
14:17:47 <tzviya> ack Ralph
14:18:14 <Ralph> ... for some reason they aren't joining the CG, though they could do this right now
14:18:38 <Ralph> Tzviya: we need someone to chair this meeting
14:18:39 <AvneeshSingh> q+
14:18:43 <Ralph> ... building an agenda
14:18:48 <Ralph> ... figuring out how to plan ahead
14:19:08 <Ralph> ... we'd been attempting to do that in collaboration with other organizations
14:19:15 <Ralph> ... we also need to plan for TPAC
14:19:33 <tzviya> ack qv
14:19:36 <tzviya> ack AvneeshSingh
14:19:55 <Ralph> Avneesh: we've discussed the need for good overlap with the IDPF Board
14:20:10 <Ralph> ... I think IDPF has recently selected a new chair
14:20:25 <Ralph> ... we could approach them to participate here
14:21:05 <Ralph> George: I believe all of the IDPF Board is on the mailing list for the Steering Committee
14:21:10 <Ralph> Tzviya: all but one
14:21:48 <Ralph> George: do we need a person from this group to co-chair or would the two IDPF co-chairs become the co-chairs?
14:22:01 <Ralph> Tzviya: it's not labor-intensive; it just needs someone to do the coordination
14:22:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:22:29 <Ralph> ... who will accept the action to contact them?
14:22:32 <Ralph> George: I'll take it
14:22:50 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
14:22:53 <Ralph> ... ask if they are willing to co-chair the combined steering committee
14:23:07 <Ralph> Bill: splendid idea
14:23:20 <Ralph> ... they bring the skills and network
14:23:33 <tzviya> ack Ralph
14:24:49 <Ralph> Ralph: thanks George!
14:25:26 <Ralph> Tzviya: I encourage you to continue the leadership discussion in the August meeting
14:25:53 <Ralph> Tzviya: the Working Group came up with many topics to discuss at TPAC
14:26:06 <Ralph> ... Wendy, Shinya, Ivan, and I were wondering who else might be able to attend
14:26:44 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/pm-wg/issues/5
14:27:01 <Ralph> Ivan: ^^ TPAC 2024 Planning #5
14:27:20 <Ralph> Tzviya: we've talked about some sort of workshop
14:27:26 <Ralph> ... I'm not sure that is going to pan out
14:27:55 <Ralph> ... Wendy added the list of things we talked about here in the steering committee
14:29:02 <Ralph> ... [reads from -> https://github.com/w3c/pm-wg/issues/5 "pm-wg/#5" ]
14:29:36 <Ralph> ... are there topics that we would particularly want to invite people for?
14:29:46 <Ralph> ... e.g. EU a11y landscape changes
14:29:59 <Ralph> ... or do people just want to focus on technical topics?
14:29:59 <ivan> q+
14:30:02 <liisamk> q+
14:30:27 <Ralph> George: in the US there has been a Title II rule change announcement that goes into effect in 2 years
14:30:52 <Ralph> ... it is not identical to EAA but some of the rules have identical impact
14:31:03 <Ralph> ... I think we will need to help the industry get a handle on this
14:31:16 <Ralph> ... particularly in K-12 education
14:31:33 <ivan> ack ivan
14:31:55 <Ralph> Ivan: do you think we will know enough by TPAC to hear more details and have a comparison with the EAA ?
14:32:08 <Ralph> ... is there more that will need attention for the US side?
14:32:24 <Ralph> George: the key details are posted; the rule is available and there are FAQs
14:32:48 <Ralph> Ivan: perhaps someone could give an overview and highlight things that need to be done that aren't already being worked
14:33:04 <Ralph> ... re: whether to have detailed technical discussions at TPAC
14:33:43 <Ralph> ... detailed technical discussions are enjoyable but I am worried that if we don't know what the industry is willing to do these discussions will be dead-ends
14:33:43 <tzviya> q+ to ask which topics interest people from a user perspective
14:34:11 <Ralph> ... for technical discussion in Anaheim, what I want to hear is what the technical people expect and what is realistic from the reading system developers to engage?
14:34:40 <tzviya> ack liisamk
14:34:40 <Ralph> ... without this feedback we end up with a WG producing specs that don't get industry pick-up
14:34:47 <AvneeshSingh> +1 Ivan
14:34:54 <Ralph> Liisa: it is important for us to raise the new US regulations and encourage people
14:35:10 <Ralph> ... some folk have not take EAA seriously
14:35:27 <Ralph> ... there are publishers, particularly small ones, who need reminders
14:36:08 <Ralph> ... to try to get into what Ivan is asking, scrolling content is one topic that would get to what the technical folk are interested in doing and what the industry feels it wants
14:36:23 <Ralph> ... other topics: pens on e-ink devices
14:36:53 <Ralph> ... the current implementations are using locators but in a way that is not consistent and not tied to the content
14:36:59 <cristina> q+
14:37:03 <tzviya> ack me
14:37:03 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask which topics interest people from a user perspective
14:37:04 <Ralph> ... the RS have been asking questions
14:37:27 <Ralph> Tzviya: Canada just adopted EN-301559 as well
14:37:34 <Ralph> s/559/549
14:37:52 <Ralph> ... the best practices for a11y have not changed
14:38:13 <Ralph> ... this is something we should stress: what's changed is the legislation
14:38:37 <Ralph> ... from a user perspective, or a developer, or a publisher; what are the most interesting questions
14:38:49 <Ralph> ... the landscape of annotation has changed
14:39:03 <Ralph> ... audiobooks, the way text-to-speech is implemented
14:39:10 <liisamk> q+
14:39:14 <Ralph> ... these may be of more technical interest than market interest
14:39:20 <tzviya> ack cristina
14:39:20 <Ralph> ... what else interests you?
14:39:23 <tzviya> q+ george
14:39:49 <Ralph> Cristina: could we have links to the Title II updates?
14:40:05 <tzviya> ack liisamk
14:40:48 <Ralph> https://www.ada.gov/law-and-regs/regulations/title-ii-2010-regulations/#:~:text=Title%20II%2C%20which%20this%20rule,State%20and%20local%20government%20entities.
14:41:32 <tzviya> ack George
14:41:45 <Ralph> Liisa: there are still parts of EPUB that publishers are being asked if they want implemented
14:42:26 <Ralph> George: in K-12 the publishers are putting together a platform that a school buys; the content is put into that LMS
14:42:39 <Ralph> ... the student uses the book inside the LMS; there's a kind of reading system in there
14:42:49 <Ralph> ... but epubtest.org has not been able to get into testing those
14:43:34 <Ralph> ... when a student moves to another level different classes may be in different LMS with different interfaces
14:43:38 <Ralph> ... it's a mess
14:43:43 <Ralph> ... what can we do to help?
14:43:53 <Ralph> ... I see this as a disaster in US education
14:43:57 <Ralph> Liisa: you're not wrong
14:44:10 <Ralph> ... the limited ability of the RS and the limited understanding of EPUB in those spaces
14:44:54 <Ralph> ... there's an assumption that things can be swapped but the implementations aren't up to spec
14:45:02 <Ralph> Tzviya: what's the ask for TPAC?
14:45:15 <Ralph> Liisa: space to talk about the challenges of implementations in various LMS
14:45:37 <ivan> q+
14:46:04 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:46:04 <Ralph> George: I have great EPUBs but they don't integrate well in LMS, in QTI, and maybe a consistent user interface with expectations
14:46:18 <Ralph> ... a consistent user interface
14:46:29 <Ralph> Tzviya: this sounds a lot like the beginnings of Edupub
14:46:36 <cristina> q+
14:46:37 <Ralph> ... we documented these issues 10 years ago
14:46:52 <Ralph> ... we're now seeing in this corner of the market that standards are not being embraced
14:47:33 <Ralph> ... publishers are creating their own reading systems in their own LMS
14:47:40 <Ralph> ... building a reading system is not easy
14:48:31 <tzviya> ack ivan
14:48:50 <Ralph> ... Norton is an exception; they could be a good case study
14:49:13 <Ralph> Ivan: I'm wondering if the EPUB structure has too many hurdles
14:49:52 <liisamk> q+
14:49:54 <Ralph> ... packaging Web contact and then integrating [those packages] creates more challenges
14:50:16 <Ralph> Bill: the multiple LMS issue sounds like a good topic for incubation in a CG task force
14:50:40 <Ralph> <Ralph> +1
14:50:56 <Ralph> George: the business side is where each publisher wants to differentiate
14:51:05 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
14:51:22 <Ralph> ... there's no open vehicle for content from multiple publishers
14:51:45 <ivan> ack cristina
14:51:46 <Ralph> ... the things students need to do: draw, create graphs, interact with science experiments -- these are the Web, not EPUB
14:52:04 <Ralph> Cristina: we should separate two topics: reading systems and LMS
14:52:21 <Ralph> ... the publishers' market is no longer only content; it is also the platform
14:52:42 <Ralph> ... better graphs, better infographic, etc.
14:52:45 <tzviya> +1 cristina
14:53:13 <Ralph> ... it would be useful to get people to use more standards; the platform is part of the business strategy
14:54:13 <Ralph> ... the way is to work on the backend, not the frontend
14:54:16 <tzviya> ack liisamk
14:54:36 <Ralph> Liisa: to Ivan's point, there is an implementation best practice that could be helpful to a lot of people
14:54:57 <Ralph> ... it's not the structure of EPUB that people get caught on; it's the assumptions they make
14:55:09 <Ralph> ... such as not expecting margins but then finding them in CSS
14:55:43 <Ralph> ... a silly thing: we don't have a consistent way to identify the head of a page
14:55:51 <Ralph> ... so each RS implements it differently
14:55:53 <ivan> q+
14:56:06 <Ralph> ... there's some help in the middle that we could give
14:56:17 <tzviya> q+ to rs dev
14:56:20 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
14:56:21 <Ralph> ... that would lead to a better experience and would be easier for a lot of folk to implement
14:57:14 <Ralph> Bill: competition concerns are true for the business folk but the technical folk can be more interested in collaboration
14:57:56 <Ralph> ... an activity along the lines of Peter Brantley's Books in Browsers: "Publishing to Platforms"
14:58:08 <tzviya> ack ivan
14:58:09 <Ralph> ... involving media and other issues that are not "book" things
14:58:17 <tzviya> ack tzviya
14:58:17 <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to rs dev
14:58:44 <Ralph> Tzviya: maybe it's time to focus more on the system side of the spec than the publisher side
14:58:59 <Ralph> Tzviya: you'll still see me around
14:59:10 <Ralph> Liisa: thank you, tell us where you land
14:59:16 <Ralph> Tzviya: I will
14:59:27 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
14:59:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been AvneeshSingh, tzviya, ivan, shiestyle, Bill_Kasdorf, liisamk, Ralph, gautierchomel, George
14:59:29 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
14:59:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/12-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
14:59:37 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
14:59:37 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
15:00:08 <Ralph> present+ Cristina
15:02:43 <Ralph> I/Tzviya: this will be/topic: Chairing the Steering Committee
15:02:56 <Ralph> s/comittee/committee/
15:03:53 <Ralph> i/Tzviya: the Working Group came/topic: TPAC planning
15:04:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/12-pbgsc-minutes.html Ralph
15:06:31 <Ralph> i/Tzviya: this will be/topic: Chairing the Steering Committee
15:06:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/12-pbgsc-minutes.html Ralph
15:07:07 <Ralph> i/Tzviya: this will be my last/topic: Chairing the Steering Committee
15:07:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/12-pbgsc-minutes.html Ralph
15:07:37 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
15:07:37 <RRSAgent> I see no action items