IRC log of wot-td on 2024-07-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:00:41 [RRSAgent]

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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/11-wot-td-irc

13:02:11 [kaz]

meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF - Slot 2

13:02:23 [Ege]

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13:02:25 [kaz]

present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Jan_Romann, Luca_Barbato

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13:02:50 [kaz]

agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#July_10_and_11%2C_2024

13:03:15 [kaz]

present+ Daniel_Peintner, Kunihiko_Toumura, Michael_Koster

13:03:32 [kaz]

chair: Koster, Ege

13:03:36 [kaz]

scribenick: Ege

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13:05:58 [Ege]

topic: Agenda Review

13:06:17 [Ege]

ek: we will start with binding reqs, then refactoring, data mapping

13:06:35 [kaz]

present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima

13:07:32 [Ege]

topic: Binding Registry Analysis

13:08:01 [Ege]

ek: we have merged the PR which had TODOs

13:08:30 [kaz]

i|we have|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/registry-analysis/Readme.md [DRAFT] Registry Mechanism Analysis

13:08:35 [kaz]

rrsagent, make log public

13:08:36 [Ege]

... thus we have two PRs that move things around

13:08:40 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

13:08:41 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

13:08:50 [Ege]

https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1199

13:09:09 [Ege]

ek: first removing the draft from the title

13:09:53 [Ege]

https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/egekorkan-patch-10/registry-analysis/Readme.md

13:09:55 [kaz]

s|https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1199|-">https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1199|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1199 wot PR 1199 - Remove requirements|

13:10:02 [Ege]

... also ti removes the requirements part from the document

13:10:22 [dape]

s/also ti/also it/

13:10:28 [kaz]

s|https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/egekorkan-patch-10/registry-analysis/Readme.md|-">https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/egekorkan-patch-10/registry-analysis/Readme.md|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/egekorkan-patch-10/registry-analysis/Readme.md Preview|

13:10:34 [Ege]

https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/376/ is moving that deleted content to binding template reop

13:10:39 [Ege]

s/reop/repo

13:10:52 [JKRhb]

rrsagent, please draft the minutes

13:10:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/11-wot-td-minutes.html JKRhb

13:11:00 [JKRhb]

rrsagent, make log public

13:11:21 [Ege]

https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/blob/21ec3001d8d1c1e16207704d20188461aa4484d6/registry-requirements.md

13:11:49 [kaz]

q+

13:11:55 [kaz]

ack k

13:12:00 [Ege]

... I have added the mention that until the html doc is ready and there are no todos, this md can stay

13:12:07 [Ege]

kaz: thank you. This is good direction

13:13:00 [Ege]

ek: the process document analysis will come later

13:13:51 [Ege]

topic: Refactoring of Binding Section

13:13:52 [Ege]

https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/2030

13:14:44 [kaz]

s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/2030|-">https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/2030|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/2030 PR 2030 - Binding Examples Refactoring|

13:15:53 [Ege]

I have addressed https://w3c.github.io/wot-thing-description/#binding-examples and the appendix with examples

13:16:10 [cris]

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13:17:53 [kaz]

-> https://pr-preview.s3.amazonaws.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/2030.html#example-tds-bindings Preview - A. Example Thing Description Instances with Protocol Bindings

13:18:02 [Ege]

ek: I have moved the examples in the beginning all to the appendix

13:18:38 [Ege]

... all examples have the same intro part

13:18:44 [mjk]

q?

13:20:03 [Ege]

topic: Design Decisions

13:22:06 [Ege]

ek: McCool was documenting the requirements of the current discovery document

13:22:28 [Ege]

https://w3c.github.io/wot-usecases/#discovery

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13:23:33 [luca_barbato]

q+

13:25:30 [mjk]

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13:25:35 [mjk]

q?

13:25:38 [Ege]

ek: we thought that we can tackle this since we have issues about this such as https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1889 and https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1824

13:25:55 [Ege]

... we can have some ui elements that clearly explain why there is a feature and mark it as a requirement

13:26:21 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

13:26:22 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

13:26:49 [Ege]

lb: having multiple per affordance is clear. Multi protocol or multi security for example

13:26:49 [kaz]

present+ Cristiano_Aguzzi

13:28:17 [mjk]

q?

13:28:17 [cris]

q+

13:28:17 [Ege]

... however in the case of jpeg or png, both data would be semantically same but not the same information would be provided

13:28:18 [kaz]

i|we can have|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1889 Issue 1889 - Documenting Design Decisions|

13:28:45 [kaz]

i|we can have|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1824 Issue 1824 - Make more explicit what to expect regarding Forms for the same affordance|

13:28:48 [Ege]

... we need to define what means similar

13:28:51 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

13:28:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

13:29:09 [Ege]

... http with json or coap with cbor, once you deserialize the content, it is exactly the same

13:29:27 [dape]

q+

13:29:51 [Ege]

... once there are lossy content types, then there will be different information

13:30:30 [kaz]

s/http/HTTP/

13:30:32 [kaz]

s/json/JSON/

13:30:35 [Ege]

... we should have a limit on how different information two forms can provide for the same operation

13:30:36 [kaz]

s/coap/CoAP/

13:30:40 [kaz]

s/cbor/CBOR/

13:30:47 [Ege]

... and same affordance

13:32:04 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

13:32:05 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

13:32:34 [kaz]

q+

13:32:42 [kaz]

ack lu

13:33:57 [JKRhb]

q+

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13:35:36 [Ege]

... do we want to enforce that same operations of an affordance give similar information (to a degree) or say that they have to give the exact same information (thus png and jpeg would not be accepted)

13:35:40 [Ege]

q?

13:36:00 [Ege]

ca: tnks

13:36:21 [Ege]

s/tnks/this applies to input as well?

13:36:32 [Ege]

lb: That is different though

13:37:28 [kaz]

s/png and jpeg/PNG and JPEG/

13:37:35 [Ege]

... when you are giving input, you know what input you are giving. There is only one. In output, two consumers can get a different output based on the form

13:38:10 [kaz]

s/on the form/on the Form/

13:39:20 [Ege]

ca: it is possible to provide the wrong header if you choose the wrong form

13:40:25 [Ege]

lb: if you have multiple input possibilities, you would send the one you want and the Thing should accept it

13:41:21 [JKRhb]

q-

13:41:21 [Ege]

... if the consumer always get the lossy output, over time, its knowledge can diverge

13:42:28 [kaz]

ack c

13:43:05 [cris]

https://github.com/eclipse-thingweb/node-wot/issues/854

13:44:11 [Ege]

ek: I would like to get a section that explains the reason why we have multiple forms and when you should design a TD with multiple or not

13:44:13 [kaz]

s|https://github.com/eclipse-thingweb/node-wot/issues/854|-">https://github.com/eclipse-thingweb/node-wot/issues/854|-> https://github.com/eclipse-thingweb/node-wot/issues/854 node-wot Issue 854 - Handle form content-type client side|

13:44:51 [kaz]

q?

13:45:56 [kaz]

ack d

13:46:09 [Ege]

dp: we should explain how to create TDs but not put rules on how the TD must be designed

13:46:19 [Ege]

... this will get too complex to specify on our side

13:46:52 [Ege]

... it will depend on the use case

13:47:03 [mjk]

q?

13:47:10 [cris]

good point dp

13:47:25 [mjk]

profiles can be more restrictive

13:47:33 [Ege]

... like the discussion on post or put, we let people pick what they want

13:48:33 [Ege]

kaz: this is good starting point but we need to more clarification

13:48:53 [Ege]

... we also need to explain how to specify the consumer's preference on the data it wants to get.

13:49:01 [Ege]

... we should have examples of devices and types of data

13:49:15 [kaz]

s/need to more/need more/

13:49:18 [kaz]

ack k

13:49:41 [Ege]

topic: CoAP Observe Subprotocol

13:50:40 [Ege]

jr: in issue 348, we came to the conclusion that subprotocol for coap observe would not be needed

13:50:53 [kaz]

-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/pull/353 wot-binding-templates PR 353 - Replace cov:observe subprotocol

13:51:24 [Ege]

... it can be always assumed since the protocol mechanism works like that

13:52:57 [Ege]

jr: also we are adding that you should not observe multiple properties at the same time

13:53:37 [Ege]

... also there is a new draft called coap pubsub which can give reason to use subprotocol field

13:54:03 [Ege]

... there is also Series Transfer Pattern (STP) in the works

13:54:08 [Ege]

q+ mjk

13:54:49 [Ege]

mk: CoAP pubsub is about setting up a mechanism to do publish and subscribe like in qtt

13:54:53 [Ege]

s/qtt/mqtt

13:55:14 [Ege]

... maybe we can just reuse observe mechanism

13:56:26 [Ege]

ek: should meta operation capability depend on the Thing capability?

13:56:34 [Ege]

jr: yes I have added this as a recommendation

13:57:09 [kaz]

s/mqtt/MQTT/

13:57:19 [Ege]

ack m

13:57:22 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

13:57:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

13:57:50 [Ege]

ek: so the observe option is always there in the request, the Thing may not have it and respond accordingly?

13:58:04 [Ege]

jr: yes and the Consumer program would not notice

13:58:25 [kaz]

s/for coap/for CoAP/

13:59:07 [Ege]

ek: Maybe this can be generalized, i.e. if there is only one way to do something, it can be always assumed

13:59:11 [kaz]

i|in issue 348|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-binding-templates/issues/348 wot-binding-templates Issue 348 - Constraints for the use of cov:observe|

13:59:14 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

13:59:16 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

13:59:52 [Ege]

ek: let's wait for Klaus. I will also try to review

14:00:06 [Ege]

ek: AOB?

14:00:14 [kaz]

i/AOB/topic: AOB/

14:00:55 [kaz]

(none)

14:00:57 [kaz]

[adjourned]

14:00:59 [kaz]

rrsagent, draft minutes

14:01:00 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/11-wot-td-minutes.html kaz

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