IRC log of matf on 2024-07-10
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 12:59:35 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #matf
- 12:59:39 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/10-matf-irc
- 12:59:39 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 12:59:40 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
- 12:59:45 [JJ]
- Zakim, this is MATF July 10, 2024
- 12:59:45 [Zakim]
- got it, JJ
- 12:59:53 [JJ]
- Meeting: MATF July 10, 2024
- 13:00:04 [JJ]
- agenda+ Guidance plans
- 13:00:10 [JJ]
- agenda+ 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A
- 13:00:12 [Illai]
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- 13:00:15 [JJ]
- agenda+ 2.1.1 Keyboard - Level A
- 13:00:21 [JJ]
- agenda+ 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A
- 13:00:25 [quintinb]
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- 13:00:28 [quintinb]
- present
- 13:00:57 [Jamie]
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- 13:01:01 [Jamie]
- Present+
- 13:01:05 [Joe_Humbert]
- present+
- 13:01:55 [Devanshu]
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- 13:02:58 [Aashutosh]
- Aashutosh has joined #matf
- 13:03:46 [julianmka]
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- 13:03:48 [julianmka]
- present+
- 13:03:58 [GleidsonRamos]
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- 13:04:15 [JJ]
- Scribe: quintinb
- 13:04:20 [Aashutosh]
- present+
- 13:04:26 [JJ]
- move to next agendum
- 13:04:26 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- Guidance plans -- taken up [from JJ]
- 13:06:33 [Mick]
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- 13:06:43 [quintinb]
- JJ has identified 3 sources of feedback: Sheets, Github and an earlier document
- 13:06:56 [Jamie]
- q+
- 13:07:29 [quintinb]
- BIAK: Would prefer to follow the structure of the EN
- 13:08:05 [Mick]
- present+
- 13:08:48 [Illai]
- +q
- 13:09:02 [quintinb]
- Jamie: Since we're adding information that isn't present, we need to make sure that we include the the same criteria
- 13:09:42 [quintinb]
- Illai - we need to make sure we align with WCAG 3 since it's going to be so different
- 13:09:58 [Detlev]
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- 13:10:26 [Detlev]
- WCAG 3 - it will definitely longer than a couple of years...
- 13:10:59 [Mick]
- My vote would be to go based on the WCAG success criteria, breaking it down for each platform type. And add gaps covered in the EN guidelines.
- 13:11:20 [Jamie]
- +1 to Mick
- 13:11:25 [Devanshu]
- present+
- 13:11:47 [Jamie]
- and +1 to Illai after we publish this draft which is for WCAG 2.2
- 13:11:56 [Illai]
- +1 to Mick
- 13:12:08 [Joe_Humbert]
- q+
- 13:12:32 [JJ]
- ack Jamie
- 13:12:35 [JJ]
- ack Illai
- 13:12:38 [JJ]
- ack Joe_Humbert
- 13:12:58 [quintinb]
- Joe: The WG may push back if we don't follow their format
- 13:13:10 [Jamie]
- who approves this ultimately?>
- 13:13:23 [Detlev]
- q+
- 13:13:50 [quintinb]
- ack Detlev
- 13:15:37 [Detlev]
- https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_tr/101500_101599/101552/01.00.00_60/tr_101552v010000p.pdf
- 13:16:01 [Detlev]
- https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_tr/101500_101599/101551/01.01.01_60/tr_101551v010101p.pdf
- 13:16:23 [quintinb]
- These documents are being use to create understanding for web and apps
- 13:16:58 [Jamie]
- Detlev we are discussing WCAG 2.2 for the scope
- 13:19:17 [JJ]
- move to next agendum
- 13:19:17 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A -- taken up [from JJ]
- 13:20:07 [quintinb]
- q+
- 13:20:35 [Jamie]
- q+
- 13:20:45 [quintinb]
- ack quintinb
- 13:20:48 [quintinb]
- I looked up the reasons behind this criterion and I think that mobile should have this as is
- 13:21:11 [quintinb]
- ack Jamie
- 13:21:18 [JJ]
- ack quintinb
- 13:21:19 [JJ]
- ack Jamie
- 13:21:57 [Joe_Humbert]
- q+
- 13:22:24 [quintinb]
- Jamie: There seemed to be apprehension that it's difficult to do- and that people need to discuss it. Implementation struggles should work themselves out over time
- 13:22:44 [quintinb]
- It's not that native can't do it
- 13:23:07 [Illai]
- +q
- 13:23:08 [Mick]
- +1 Jamie - leave as is for native apps. Teams should be pushed more to do it.
- 13:23:13 [quintinb]
- Personal opinion: MVP's aren't designed for people, but for businesses
- 13:23:14 [JJ]
- ack Joe_Humbert
- 13:23:19 [Aashutosh]
- q+
- 13:23:48 [Aashutosh]
- +1 to Joe
- 13:24:03 [quintinb]
- Are doing this to save business money?
- 13:24:15 [quintinb]
- Fair
- 13:24:53 [quintinb]
- I am worried about slippery slope "It's hard" can be translated to almost anything in accessibility
- 13:25:14 [Aashutosh]
- quintinb it does and I am facing it everyday!
- 13:25:24 [quintinb]
- Oh me too!
- 13:25:30 [quintinb]
- ack Illai
- 13:25:41 [Illai]
- https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/613
- 13:25:54 [JJ]
- Illai: Discussion on 1.3.4 ^
- 13:26:18 [quintinb]
- Illai - wcag group seemed to agree
- 13:26:30 [quintinb]
- +1 Illai - thanks for this!
- 13:26:56 [JJ]
- q?
- 13:27:04 [JJ]
- ack Aashutosh
- 13:28:33 [quintinb]
- JJ: Biggest problem in landscape is virtual keyboard takes up most of the screen
- 13:28:51 [quintinb]
- This is why you should design for accessibility, to be fair
- 13:29:41 [quintinb]
- q+
- 13:30:56 [Jamie]
- q+
- 13:31:11 [quintinb]
- iPhone currently doesn't support landscape in certain situations - I recommend we keep the guidance
- 13:31:19 [quintinb]
- JJ: Should we support upside down?
- 13:31:28 [julianmka]
- q+
- 13:31:37 [JJ]
- ack quintinb
- 13:31:38 [quintinb]
- quintinb: +1 I think all the orientations
- 13:31:41 [JJ]
- ack Jamie
- 13:33:21 [quintinb]
- Jamie: iPhone just introduced phone mirroring - so you should be reorient and type in with other inputs
- 13:33:41 [quintinb]
- Jamie what do you mean by mirroring? I've been using QuickTime for years
- 13:34:37 [quintinb]
- Ok thanks - I'd love a link
- 13:34:57 [JJ]
- q?
- 13:35:01 [JJ]
- ack julianmka
- 13:35:16 [Joe_Humbert]
- q+
- 13:35:52 [quintinb]
- Julian: Users may not pay attention to the specific direction of the phone
- 13:36:01 [Aashutosh]
- quintinb here is the link https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/24/24184882/apple-iphone-mirroring-ios-18-macos-sequoia-developer-beta
- 13:36:35 [quintinb]
- Julian: Users may be confused
- 13:37:39 [quintinb]
- JJ: (Who uses a iPhone) had to specifically orientate his phone upside down couldn't
- 13:38:05 [quintinb]
- q+
- 13:38:14 [quintinb]
- ack Joe_Humbert
- 13:38:59 [quintinb]
- Joe: Keystroke passing may work similarly to ADB
- 13:39:27 [quintinb]
- ack quintinb
- 13:39:31 [julianmka]
- Not to say that there aren't valid reasons to handle specific orientations - the Sonos example is a good one, or scanning a check for mobile deposit
- 13:39:50 [JJ]
- move to next agendum
- 13:39:50 [Zakim]
- agendum 3 -- 2.1.1 Keyboard - Level A -- taken up [from JJ]
- 13:40:55 [quintinb]
- Jamie - we are going through the SC's in alphabetical order
- 13:41:51 [quintinb]
- Jamie suggests we go through the SC on Github
- 13:43:12 [Detlev]
- q+
- 13:44:50 [Jamie]
- q+
- 13:45:25 [Jamie]
- @qinton never mind, no question
- 13:45:36 [quintinb]
- ack Detlev
- 13:45:41 [quintinb]
- ack Jamie
- 13:45:59 [quintinb]
- Detlev: Happy to put this on the back burner
- 13:47:20 [Jamie]
- q+
- 13:49:33 [quintinb]
- Detlev: Do we need to confirm what is possible to require from platforms
- 13:49:53 [quintinb]
- q+
- 13:50:59 [Joe_Humbert]
- q+\
- 13:51:08 [Joe_Humbert]
- q-\
- 13:51:13 [Joe_Humbert]
- q+\
- 13:51:17 [Joe_Humbert]
- q-\
- 13:51:23 [Joe_Humbert]
- q+
- 13:51:30 [quintinb]
- ack Jamie
- 13:51:48 [JJ]
- JJ has joined #matf
- 13:51:53 [JJ]
- q?
- 13:52:14 [quintinb]
- Jamie: there is a gesture mode from full keyboard access
- 13:52:33 [quintinb]
- ack quintinb
- 13:52:38 [quintinb]
- I am growing concerned that we're favouring platforms over people
- 13:53:54 [JJ]
- quintinb: passionate about supporting keyboard in WCAG/MATF for people that need to use it
- 13:54:18 [Detlev]
- q+
- 13:54:25 [Jamie]
- q+
- 13:54:43 [quintinb]
- ack Joe_Humbert
- 13:55:38 [Jamie]
- +1 to Joe_Humbert
- 13:55:46 [julianmka]
- +1 Joe_Humbert
- 13:56:45 [quintinb]
- Joe_Humbert: It seems like Switch is more another interface. And there are differences between ipad and ios
- 13:57:30 [quintinb]
- Joe: The problem with cross platform is that they don't have the hooks they need
- 13:57:47 [julianmka]
- q+
- 13:58:24 [quintinb]
- Joe: There are limited shortcuts on Android in comparison to iOS
- 13:58:44 [JJ]
- q?
- 13:58:50 [quintinb]
- ack Detlev
- 13:59:15 [quintinb]
- Detlev: There needs to be better documentation
- 13:59:42 [Joe_Humbert]
- apple and google both need better documentation for users
- 14:00:15 [Jamie]
- +1 to @detlev
- 14:00:27 [Jamie]
- keyboard Gestures is hidden under "Commands"
- 14:00:30 [quintinb]
- Can the W3C mandate that?
- 14:00:44 [julianmka]
- q-
- 14:00:46 [quintinb]
- There are commands to reveal the gestures
- 14:00:54 [quintinb]
- Both Android and iOS
- 14:01:01 [quintinb]
- ack Jamie
- 14:01:01 [JJ]
- ack Jamie
- 14:01:18 [quintinb]
- Jamie: Would we be considering voice activation?
- 14:01:18 [julianmka]
- I'll bring my comment to the Github thread, gotta drop for a meeting now.
- 14:01:26 [JJ]
- Thanks julianmka!
- 14:02:18 [Joe_Humbert]
- possibly Jamie, but I have seen differences between switch and voice access ;-(
- 14:03:14 [quintinb]
- Proposal: Make guidance on discover methods
- 14:03:21 [quintinb]
- *discovery
- 14:04:13 [quintinb]
- q+
- 14:05:22 [quintinb]
- ack quintinb
- 14:05:47 [Detlev]
- Detlev has joined #matf
- 14:05:57 [Detlev]
- present+
- 14:06:00 [quintinb]
- JJ: We need to make sure that the AT is working
- 14:06:14 [Detlev]
- q+
- 14:06:20 [Jamie]
- thanks all, have to drop
- 14:06:24 [JJ]
- ack quintinb
- 14:07:39 [quintinb]
- We may getting lost between the categories of platform vs applications
- 14:07:51 [quintinb]
- JJ: It needs to be reasonable
- 14:08:14 [JJ]
- ack Detlev
- 14:10:41 [JJ]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 14:10:42 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/10-matf-minutes.html JJ
- 14:11:24 [JJ]
- rrsagent, bye
- 14:11:24 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items