12:59:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:59:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/10-matf-irc
12:59:39 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:59:40 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:59:45 <JJ> Zakim, this is MATF July 10, 2024
12:59:45 <Zakim> got it, JJ
12:59:53 <JJ> Meeting: MATF July 10, 2024
13:00:04 <JJ> agenda+ Guidance plans
13:00:10 <JJ> agenda+ 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A
13:00:12 <Illai> Illai has joined #matf
13:00:15 <JJ> agenda+ 2.1.1 Keyboard - Level A
13:00:21 <JJ> agenda+ 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A
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13:00:28 <quintinb> present
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13:01:01 <Jamie> Present+
13:01:05 <Joe_Humbert> present+
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13:03:48 <julianmka> present+
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13:04:15 <JJ> Scribe: quintinb
13:04:20 <Aashutosh> present+
13:04:26 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:04:26 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Guidance plans -- taken up [from JJ]
13:06:33 <Mick> Mick has joined #MATF
13:06:43 <quintinb> JJ has identified 3 sources of feedback: Sheets, Github and an earlier document
13:06:56 <Jamie> q+
13:07:29 <quintinb> BIAK: Would prefer to follow the structure of the EN
13:08:05 <Mick> present+
13:08:48 <Illai> +q
13:09:02 <quintinb> Jamie: Since we're adding information that isn't present, we need to make sure that we include the the same criteria
13:09:42 <quintinb> Illai - we need to make sure we align with WCAG 3 since it's going to be so different
13:09:58 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #matf
13:10:26 <Detlev> WCAG 3 - it will definitely longer than a couple of years...
13:10:59 <Mick> My vote would be to go based on the WCAG success criteria, breaking it down for each platform type. And add gaps covered in the EN guidelines.
13:11:20 <Jamie> +1 to Mick
13:11:25 <Devanshu> present+
13:11:47 <Jamie> and +1 to Illai after we publish this draft which is for WCAG 2.2
13:11:56 <Illai> +1 to Mick
13:12:08 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:12:32 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:12:35 <JJ> ack Illai
13:12:38 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:12:58 <quintinb> Joe: The WG may push back if we don't follow their format
13:13:10 <Jamie> who approves this ultimately?>
13:13:23 <Detlev> q+
13:13:50 <quintinb> ack Detlev
13:15:37 <Detlev> https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_tr/101500_101599/101552/01.00.00_60/tr_101552v010000p.pdf
13:16:01 <Detlev> https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_tr/101500_101599/101551/01.01.01_60/tr_101551v010101p.pdf
13:16:23 <quintinb> These documents are being use to create understanding for web and apps
13:16:58 <Jamie> Detlev we are discussing WCAG 2.2 for the scope
13:19:17 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:19:17 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A -- taken up [from JJ]
13:20:07 <quintinb> q+
13:20:35 <Jamie> q+
13:20:45 <quintinb> ack quintinb
13:20:48 <quintinb> I looked up the reasons behind this criterion and I think that mobile should have this as is
13:21:11 <quintinb> ack Jamie
13:21:18 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:21:19 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:21:57 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:22:24 <quintinb> Jamie: There seemed to be apprehension that it's difficult to do- and that people need to discuss it. Implementation struggles should work themselves out over time
13:22:44 <quintinb> It's not that native can't do it
13:23:07 <Illai> +q
13:23:08 <Mick> +1 Jamie - leave as is for native apps. Teams should be pushed more to do it.
13:23:13 <quintinb> Personal opinion: MVP's aren't designed for people, but for businesses
13:23:14 <JJ> ack Joe_Humbert
13:23:19 <Aashutosh> q+
13:23:48 <Aashutosh> +1 to Joe
13:24:03 <quintinb> Are doing this to save business money?
13:24:15 <quintinb> Fair
13:24:53 <quintinb> I am worried about slippery slope "It's hard" can be translated to almost anything in accessibility
13:25:14 <Aashutosh> quintinb it does and I am facing it everyday!
13:25:24 <quintinb> Oh me too!
13:25:30 <quintinb> ack Illai
13:25:41 <Illai> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/613
13:25:54 <JJ> Illai: Discussion on 1.3.4 ^
13:26:18 <quintinb> Illai - wcag group seemed to agree
13:26:30 <quintinb> +1 Illai - thanks for this!
13:26:56 <JJ> q?
13:27:04 <JJ> ack Aashutosh
13:28:33 <quintinb> JJ: Biggest problem in landscape is virtual keyboard takes up most of the screen
13:28:51 <quintinb> This is why you should design for accessibility, to be fair
13:29:41 <quintinb> q+
13:30:56 <Jamie> q+
13:31:11 <quintinb> iPhone currently doesn't support landscape in certain situations - I recommend we keep the guidance
13:31:19 <quintinb> JJ: Should we support upside down?
13:31:28 <julianmka> q+
13:31:37 <JJ> ack quintinb
13:31:38 <quintinb> quintinb: +1 I think all the orientations
13:31:41 <JJ> ack Jamie
13:33:21 <quintinb> Jamie: iPhone just introduced phone mirroring - so you should be reorient and type in with other inputs
13:33:41 <quintinb> Jamie what do you mean by mirroring? I've been using QuickTime for years
13:34:37 <quintinb> Ok thanks - I'd love a link
13:34:57 <JJ> q?
13:35:01 <JJ> ack julianmka
13:35:16 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:35:52 <quintinb> Julian: Users may not pay attention to the specific direction of the phone
13:36:01 <Aashutosh> quintinb here is the link https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/24/24184882/apple-iphone-mirroring-ios-18-macos-sequoia-developer-beta
13:36:35 <quintinb> Julian: Users may be confused
13:37:39 <quintinb> JJ: (Who uses a iPhone) had to specifically orientate his phone upside down couldn't
13:38:05 <quintinb> q+
13:38:14 <quintinb> ack Joe_Humbert
13:38:59 <quintinb> Joe: Keystroke passing may work similarly to ADB
13:39:27 <quintinb> ack quintinb
13:39:31 <julianmka> Not to say that there aren't valid reasons to handle specific orientations - the Sonos example is a good one, or scanning a check for mobile deposit
13:39:50 <JJ> move to next agendum
13:39:50 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- 2.1.1 Keyboard - Level A -- taken up [from JJ]
13:40:55 <quintinb> Jamie - we are going through the SC's in alphabetical order
13:41:51 <quintinb> Jamie suggests we go through the SC on Github
13:43:12 <Detlev> q+
13:44:50 <Jamie> q+
13:45:25 <Jamie> @qinton never mind, no question
13:45:36 <quintinb> ack Detlev
13:45:41 <quintinb> ack Jamie
13:45:59 <quintinb> Detlev: Happy to put this on the back burner
13:47:20 <Jamie> q+
13:49:33 <quintinb> Detlev: Do we need to confirm what is possible to require from platforms
13:49:53 <quintinb> q+
13:50:59 <Joe_Humbert> q+\
13:51:08 <Joe_Humbert> q-\
13:51:13 <Joe_Humbert> q+\
13:51:17 <Joe_Humbert> q-\
13:51:23 <Joe_Humbert> q+
13:51:30 <quintinb> ack Jamie
13:51:48 <JJ> JJ has joined #matf
13:51:53 <JJ> q?
13:52:14 <quintinb> Jamie: there is a gesture mode from full keyboard access
13:52:33 <quintinb> ack quintinb
13:52:38 <quintinb> I am growing concerned that we're favouring platforms over people
13:53:54 <JJ> quintinb: passionate about supporting keyboard in WCAG/MATF for people that need to use it
13:54:18 <Detlev> q+
13:54:25 <Jamie> q+
13:54:43 <quintinb> ack Joe_Humbert
13:55:38 <Jamie> +1 to Joe_Humbert
13:55:46 <julianmka> +1 Joe_Humbert
13:56:45 <quintinb> Joe_Humbert: It seems like Switch is more another interface. And there are differences between ipad and ios
13:57:30 <quintinb> Joe: The problem with cross platform is that they don't have the hooks they need
13:57:47 <julianmka> q+
13:58:24 <quintinb> Joe: There are limited shortcuts on Android in comparison to iOS
13:58:44 <JJ> q?
13:58:50 <quintinb> ack Detlev
13:59:15 <quintinb> Detlev: There needs to be better documentation
13:59:42 <Joe_Humbert> apple and google both need better documentation for users
14:00:15 <Jamie> +1 to @detlev
14:00:27 <Jamie> keyboard Gestures is hidden under "Commands"
14:00:30 <quintinb> Can the W3C mandate that?
14:00:44 <julianmka> q-
14:00:46 <quintinb> There are commands to reveal the gestures
14:00:54 <quintinb> Both Android and iOS
14:01:01 <quintinb> ack Jamie
14:01:01 <JJ> ack Jamie
14:01:18 <quintinb> Jamie: Would we be considering voice activation?
14:01:18 <julianmka> I'll bring my comment to the Github thread, gotta drop for a meeting now.
14:01:26 <JJ> Thanks julianmka!
14:02:18 <Joe_Humbert> possibly Jamie, but I have seen differences between switch and voice access ;-(
14:03:14 <quintinb> Proposal: Make guidance on discover methods
14:03:21 <quintinb> *discovery
14:04:13 <quintinb> q+
14:05:22 <quintinb> ack quintinb
14:05:47 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #matf
14:05:57 <Detlev> present+
14:06:00 <quintinb> JJ: We need to make sure that the AT is working
14:06:14 <Detlev> q+
14:06:20 <Jamie> thanks all, have to drop
14:06:24 <JJ> ack quintinb
14:07:39 <quintinb> We may getting lost between the categories of platform vs applications
14:07:51 <quintinb> JJ: It needs to be reasonable
14:08:14 <JJ> ack Detlev
14:10:41 <JJ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:10:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/10-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:11:24 <JJ> rrsagent, bye
14:11:24 <RRSAgent> I see no action items