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14:04:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:04:31 <Chuck> chair:  Chuck
14:04:31 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
14:04:38 <Chuck> meeting:  AGWG-2024-07-09
14:04:44 <Chuck> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:04:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/09-ag-minutes.html Chuck
14:04:53 <Chuck> agenda+ Subgroup meeting Kickoff
14:18:54 <Chuck> testing pasting
14:19:23 <Chuck> 			Adjust Color:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bwr8ciRGP5W4zvzBQtJObxaUYRxsR5OrpYYpuK4rDyE/edit#heading=h.4fu2rk4qoiti
14:19:23 <Chuck> 			Haptic Stimulation:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U5DbLdJIyuIJLdLMhn1F_A0NT_D_qe4MO49F_fJ_fEA/edit#heading=h.4fu2rk4qoiti
14:19:23 <Chuck> 			Implied Meaning:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P7fOyEPVlqf1aXuJY0SO9LeC-E7EZllg/edit#heading=h.gjdgxs
14:19:23 <Chuck> 			Keyboard Only:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uE2WCxPmvNopdCbuZQm_-cGyEdxEouRmZ8UUIlyutoU/edit#heading=h.4fu2rk4qoiti
14:19:25 <Chuck> Section Labels:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rHL0Zx4tpNRMztUFXURKn1He74mjRMeDaf330a01FYs/edit#heading=h.4fu2rk4qoiti
14:33:20 <Chuck> regrets: Todd Libby
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15:05:21 <Francis_Storr> scribe: Francis_Storr
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15:06:41 <Francis_Storr> alastairc: reminder to get early bird TPAC tickets
15:06:52 <Chuck> zakim, take up item 1
15:06:52 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Subgroup meeting Kickoff -- taken up [from Chuck]
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15:06:56 <Jen_G> Present+
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15:07:20 <Francis_Storr> Chuck: thanks to everyone who signed up for a subgroup
15:07:23 <laura> present+ Laura_Carlson
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15:07:52 <ljoakley> q+
15:08:13 <Francis_Storr> Chuck: for the next 4 meetings, this is the work we'll be doing. For the next 3 meetings, it'll be 1 hour for subgroup, 1 hour for WCAG 2
15:08:33 <Francis_Storr> Chuck: it would be good to stay in the same subgroup over the next 4 weeks
15:09:15 <MJ> q+
15:09:24 <Chuck> 			Adjust Color:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Bwr8ciRGP5W4zvzBQtJObxaUYRxsR5OrpYYpuK4rDyE/edit#heading=h.4fu2rk4qoiti
15:09:24 <Chuck> 			Haptic Stimulation:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1U5DbLdJIyuIJLdLMhn1F_A0NT_D_qe4MO49F_fJ_fEA/edit#heading=h.4fu2rk4qoiti
15:09:24 <Chuck> 			Implied Meaning:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P7fOyEPVlqf1aXuJY0SO9LeC-E7EZllg/edit#heading=h.gjdgxs
15:09:24 <Chuck> 			Keyboard Only:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uE2WCxPmvNopdCbuZQm_-cGyEdxEouRmZ8UUIlyutoU/edit#heading=h.4fu2rk4qoiti
15:09:26 <Chuck> Section Labels:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rHL0Zx4tpNRMztUFXURKn1He74mjRMeDaf330a01FYs/edit#heading=h.4fu2rk4qoiti
15:09:27 <Francis_Storr> Chuck: each subgroup has a document to work out of
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15:10:05 <Francis_Storr> Chuck: at the bottom of each document is a space for meeting notes. please use that if needed.
15:10:24 <Francis_Storr> Chuck: subgroup leads - please document the subgroup members who contribute to the meetings
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15:11:00 <GN015> q+
15:11:21 <Francis_Storr> Chuck: we're looking for async participation opportunities - if you have any ideas on what these could be, please let us know.
15:11:38 <mbgower> Is Adjust Color the same as Non-text Contrast? That's what it links to
15:11:45 <Chuck> q?
15:11:49 <Chuck> ack lj
15:12:07 <Jennie_Delisi> * Thank you for providing options for participating asynchronously!
15:12:12 <avon> q+
15:12:14 <Chuck> ack MJ
15:12:42 <alastairc> Yes, adjust colour is part of non-text colour contrast
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15:13:44 <Chuck> ack GN
15:14:07 <alastairc> q+
15:14:18 <Chuck> ack avon
15:14:19 <wendyreid> present+
15:14:32 <Rachael> q+ to answer avon
15:14:40 <Francis_Storr> GN confused about whether adjust color is also non-text contrast
15:14:52 <Chuck> ack ala
15:15:02 <Francis_Storr> avon: can you share the voice interaction document
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15:15:31 <Frankie> Present+
15:15:35 <avon> present+
15:15:37 <Chuck> ack Rach
15:15:37 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to answer avon
15:15:49 <Francis_Storr> alastairc both the text contrast and non-text contrast giving users the ability to change the color scheme is something we're looking at
15:16:29 <avon> sounds good Rachael
15:16:34 <Chuck> q?
15:16:49 <Francis_Storr> Rachael voice interaction is a step behind where we are at the moment. Once we have voice interaction set up and ready to work on, you can move to that but in the meantime pick one of the groups we've listed today.
15:17:46 <Francis_Storr> Rachael Each group has its own scratchpad.
15:18:02 <Francis_Storr> ... if there are inter-related outcomes, they'll be listed in the document.
15:18:21 <Francis_Storr> ... any scratchpads that have background information are also listed
15:18:46 <Francis_Storr> ... you'll be filling out the highlighted areas
15:18:57 <Francis_Storr> ... please fill out the meeting minutes
15:19:27 <ljoakley> q+
15:19:32 <Chuck> ack lj
15:19:49 <Ben_Tillyer> q+
15:20:11 <Francis_Storr> ljoakley are we using just this time for the subgroup work and not the times we were asked to pick in the survey?
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15:20:25 <Rachael> q+
15:20:30 <Chuck> ack Ben
15:20:40 <Francis_Storr> Chuck for the next 3 weeks, we're using the AGWG time, then after that it'll change to the picked times
15:21:11 <Chuck> ack Rachael
15:21:16 <Francis_Storr> Ben_Tillyer contact email address is for Michael Cooper, should that be removed?
15:21:24 <Francis_Storr> Rachael Yes, I'll work on that. Thanks
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15:22:20 <Francis_Storr> Rachael we encourage you to continue to engage asynchronously with the subgroup if you can't make the meeting times.
15:22:25 <Chuck> q?
15:23:46 <Francis_Storr> Chuck I'll close the rooms 30 minutes before the end for us to come back and talk about how it went, etc.
15:23:55 <Francis_Storr> WOO!
15:26:25 <giacomo-petri> Section Labels Doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rHL0Zx4tpNRMztUFXURKn1He74mjRMeDaf330a01FYs/edit#heading=h.4fu2rk4qoiti
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15:29:00 <Chuck> Keyboard Only:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uE2WCxPmvNopdCbuZQm_-cGyEdxEouRmZ8UUIlyutoU/edit#heading=h.4fu2rk4qoiti
15:37:26 <Glenda> present+
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16:34:57 <alastairc> q?
16:36:23 <Francis_Storr> alastairc we made a good start. we have an outcome we've redefined
16:36:57 <Francis_Storr> ... we gathered user needs and made a start on the decision tree
16:37:11 <mbgower> q+
16:37:17 <Francis_Storr> ... we set an async task to find examples
16:37:36 <Chuck> ack mb
16:37:46 <Francis_Storr> ... I think we're pretty comfortable moving forward
16:38:05 <Chuck> q?
16:38:50 <Francis_Storr> mbgower we had a really amazing group. we also tweaked our outcomes
16:39:30 <Francis_Storr> ... we want to make sure that the haptic stimulation went both ways: feedback and input.
16:39:46 <Francis_Storr> ... we defined some user needs
16:40:20 <Francis_Storr> ... there was generally a feeling that each of the user needs could be a method
16:40:57 <alastairc> Isn't haptic touch output?
16:40:58 <Francis_Storr> ... just as we were finishing we had a discussion on exactly what haptics is.
16:41:10 <Rachael> q+
16:41:10 <alastairc> Sorry, isn't haptic "touch output"?
16:41:28 <Chuck> ack Rach
16:41:46 <Francis_Storr> Rachael is this meant to be input and output or just output?
16:42:23 <Francis_Storr> mbgower overall there's a lot more examples of feedback than input. there are a lot of examples of games that need manipulation of a device.
16:42:51 <Francis_Storr> Glenda in addition to shake, if you fall really hard with an apple watch on, that's haptic input
16:42:51 <alastairc> Ah, yes,  looking up "haptic" is more general than I had assumed. But I think "haptic stimulation" would be output based rather than input.
16:43:11 <Rachael> q+
16:43:33 <Chuck> ack Rach
16:43:46 <Francis_Storr> Ben_Tillyer to me, that isn't. if we were talking about audio input, I wouldn't group sound coming out of the speaker in the same category. To me, haptic is output not input.
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16:43:55 <TheoHale> present+
16:44:02 <TheoHale> q+
16:44:09 <mbgower> q+ to say we do not need to resolve now. We just need to be aware of a need to resolve this.
16:44:15 <Chuck> q+ to move us to other teams
16:44:39 <Chuck> ack Theo
16:44:50 <Francis_Storr> Rachael We have, in a first pass, come up with a set out outputs. We need to decide whether to focus on inputs, outputs, or both. It's hard to work in ambiguity, but it's an important part of the process.
16:45:22 <Ben_Tillyer> q+
16:45:29 <alastairc> I thought the original requirement was not over-doing haptic "feedback", as that's the problem for some people with cognitive issues or on the spectrum.
16:45:31 <Chuck> ack mbg
16:45:31 <Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say we do not need to resolve now. We just need to be aware of a need to resolve this.
16:45:45 <Ben_Tillyer> q-
16:45:45 <alastairc> q+ GN
16:45:46 <Francis_Storr> TheoHale another example of haptic feedback is force feedback in steering wheels
16:46:08 <JenStrickland> I do think that Glenda's point, that a fall that is recorded in a device is haptic feedback, input.
16:46:11 <Chuck> ack Ch
16:46:11 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to move us to other teams
16:46:18 <Francis_Storr> mbgower we don't have to resolve this now. it makes sense to me to work in this holistically. I thought this was a really great experience.
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16:46:48 <julierawe> present+
16:47:01 <bruce_bailey> tapping back of phone is haptic input
16:47:21 <jtoles> Didn't think about the new pinch input with the Apple Watch
16:47:46 <Francis_Storr> julierawe we had a good conversation about implied meaning and figurative language
16:47:49 <Francis_Storr> ... we currently only have one user need
16:47:55 <Ben_Tillyer> If you think that's haptic feedback, isn't EVERY mouse/pointer/keyboard/stylus input "haptic"?
16:48:08 <Ben_Tillyer> GN was talking about "Back Touch" - https://support.apple.com/en-gb/111772
16:48:15 <Ben_Tillyer> Back Tap *
16:48:15 <Francis_Storr> ... we also talked about what to do
16:48:47 <Francis_Storr> ... we spent the bulk of our time talking about a decision tree, including "is the content a work of art?"
16:49:10 <Francis_Storr> ... we're going to have to get into localization
16:49:45 <alastairc> q+ on starting off a decision tree
16:49:56 <alastairc> q- GN
16:49:57 <Francis_Storr> ... we talked about word play and alliteration
16:50:06 <Chuck> ack ala
16:50:06 <Zakim> alastairc, you wanted to comment on starting off a decision tree
16:50:44 <Francis_Storr> alastairc: I thought Mike's group had a good approach by starting out listing methods
16:50:59 <Francis_Storr> ... and then construct the decision tree from those
16:51:26 <Francis_Storr> bruce_bailey I want to thank the people in the subgroup
16:51:54 <Francis_Storr> ... next time we meet, we'll look at platform commands
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16:52:32 <Francis_Storr> ...  theo volunteered to work on a decision tree
16:53:25 <Chuck> q?
16:53:29 <GN015> present+
16:53:46 <Francis_Storr> ... we looked at the page with 25 user needs and many of them fit into multiple categrories
16:53:50 <Chuck> present+
16:54:24 <Francis_Storr> giacomo-petri Section labels subgroup. Our first step was to make sure content had a meaningful structure.
16:54:45 <Francis_Storr> ... we had some concern about the word "meaningful". We need to work a bit on this.
16:55:09 <Chuck> q?
16:55:14 <Francis_Storr> ... we started crafting examples, which is also the work for the next meeting
16:55:46 <Francis_Storr> Chuck we will meet again next week to spend an hour working in subgroups.
16:56:25 <Francis_Storr> alastairc for Bruce's group - it might be better to tackle one outcome at a time.
16:56:39 <Detlev> present+
16:56:54 <Chuck> zakim, make minutes
16:56:54 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', Chuck
16:57:01 <Chuck> rrsagent, make minutes
16:57:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/09-ag-minutes.html Chuck
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