12:56:36 RRSAgent has joined #matf 12:56:41 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/03-matf-irc 12:56:41 RRSAgent, make logs Public 12:56:42 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ 12:56:46 Zakim, this is MATF July 3, 2024 12:56:46 got it, JJ 12:56:55 Meeting: MATF July 3, 2024 12:57:43 agenda+ Updates 12:57:51 agenda+ 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics - Level A 12:57:57 agenda+ 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A 12:57:58 Joe_Humbert has joined #matf 12:58:03 agenda+ 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A 12:58:15 agenda+ Guidance setup 12:58:28 zakim, agenda? 12:58:28 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 12:58:29 1. Updates [from JJ] 12:58:29 2. 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics - Level A [from JJ] 12:58:29 3. 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A [from JJ] 12:58:29 4. 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A [from JJ] 12:58:29 5. Guidance setup [from JJ] 12:58:32 move to next agendum 12:58:32 agendum 1 -- Updates -- taken up [from JJ] 12:58:34 present+ 12:59:32 AlainVagner has joined #matf 12:59:51 regrets+ Audrey 13:00:04 regrets+ Julian 13:01:57 present+ 13:02:57 present+ 13:03:29 Jamie has joined #matf 13:03:34 present+ 13:04:31 GleidsonRamos has joined #matf 13:05:08 Github issues overview: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues 13:05:57 +1 to Quinton's suggestion 13:06:04 Action: Create issues for the Success Criteria before the meeting for them starts 13:07:56 quintinb has joined #MATF 13:08:02 https://github.com/w3c/matf/wiki/IRC-Cheatsheet 13:09:21 Detlev has joined #matf 13:09:46 q+ 13:09:55 ack Detlev 13:09:59 present+ 13:10:02 scribe: AlainVagner 13:10:13 ack Detlev 13:10:43 agenda+ Closed Functionality (WCAG2ICT) 13:10:53 agenda+ 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics - Level A 13:11:04 agenda+ 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A 13:11:15 agenda+ 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A 13:11:25 agenda+ Guidance setup 13:11:55 Detlev: there is an ongoing discussion about keyboard accessibility, should be discuss it in the frame of this call? 13:12:12 Detlev: would be interesting to build consensus around those practices 13:13:01 jj: can be discussed in the frame of the "guidance setup" agendum 13:13:17 GleidsonRamos has joined #matf 13:13:20 jj: for now go through all the SC, and then see where discussion is happening 13:13:37 jj: will take a couple of months to go through all the SC 13:14:00 jj: special points can be brought to the agenda to be discussed 13:14:20 jj: discussions to improve the process and to make it quicker 13:14:25 q+ 13:14:54 jj: 10 weeks to go though all SC 13:15:02 ack Detlev 13:15:03 10 weeks just for AA 13:15:08 I mean A 13:15:22 zakim, agenda? 13:15:22 I see 10 items remaining on the agenda: 13:15:23 1. Updates [from JJ] 13:15:23 2. 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics - Level A [from JJ] 13:15:23 3. 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A [from JJ] 13:15:23 4. 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A [from JJ] 13:15:23 5. Guidance setup [from JJ] 13:15:23 6. Closed Functionality (WCAG2ICT) [from AlainVagner] 13:15:23 7. 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics - Level A [from AlainVagner] 13:15:24 8. 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A [from AlainVagner] 13:15:24 9. 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A [from AlainVagner] 13:15:24 10. Guidance setup [from AlainVagner] 13:15:37 q+ 13:15:43 agenda - 6 13:15:49 agenda- 7 13:15:55 agenda- 8 13:15:58 agenda-9 13:16:05 agenda- 10 13:16:17 zakim, agenda? 13:16:17 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 13:16:18 1. Updates [from JJ] 13:16:18 2. 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics - Level A [from JJ] 13:16:18 3. 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A [from JJ] 13:16:18 4. 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A [from JJ] 13:16:18 5. Guidance setup [from JJ] 13:16:51 jj: meeting minutes for all the previous meetings are available in the calendar 13:17:26 Past MATF meetings with minutes: https://www.w3.org/groups/tf/mobile-a11y-tf/calendar/?past=1&tf=0 13:18:18 q+ 13:18:34 q+ 13:18:47 ack Jamie 13:18:54 Be right back... 13:19:23 Back (laptop lost power) 13:19:31 jamie: use the call to talk about discussions that happened in smaller settings 13:20:06 jamie: focus more on update from smaller groups 13:20:27 jamie: split the tasks among sub-groups 13:21:18 +1 to Jamie 13:21:37 jamie: possibility to split by principles 13:21:41 original work statement: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q5ggj1BedAKlxugFn9xxahKbKgZeeZsxytdw-o1HQsE/edit#heading=h.su244eodr52k 13:21:56 jj: groups could be done based on interests 13:22:57 jamie: draft from 2018 still refers to 2.0, could be updated to 2.1 and 2.2 13:23:17 jamie: goal could be to have a draft for the end of the year 13:23:56 jj: finish A an AA by september 13:24:05 ^ that last one was a question, what was the goal? 13:24:16 jj: agree, we should work on a draft 13:24:20 q+ 13:24:36 q? 13:24:40 q+ 13:24:55 jj: SC from 2.1 and 2.2 have not yet been discussed 13:25:09 jj: we should restructure the way of working a little bit 13:25:22 ack quintinb 13:25:59 quintinb: github issue for all the tickets, have a checklist for each SC to know if they have reached a critical mass 13:26:15 +1 to quintinb 13:26:17 quintinb: might take a bit of time to facilitate 13:26:24 +1 to Quinton 13:26:36 ack Detlev 13:26:40 *Quintin 13:27:37 ack Joe_Humbert 13:27:42 detlev: same as quintinb 13:28:09 Joe_Humbert: check doc from 2018, tickets to know what do we wanna keep 13:28:13 https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/ 13:28:33 Joe_Humbert: what would be the new structure, like the previous? like WCAG2ICT? sth else? we cannot start without structure 13:28:44 Joe_Humbert: we need to speed things up 13:29:40 jj: use the W3C tool for official doc, take a look how to use the tool 13:30:10 q? 13:30:37 jj: 2.1.1 will be for the next meeting 13:30:43 agenda+ 13:30:58 agendum+ 13:30:58 move to next agendum 13:30:58 agendum 2 -- 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics - Level A -- taken up [from JJ] 13:31:26 Do we have any bad examples of failures of 1.3.3 failures? 13:31:36 Sorry examples of failures 13:31:42 They don't have to be bad 13:32:11 I suppose line charts are good examples here 13:32:51 jj: don't see this happening too often. Tabbar without text, where the selected tab has another color. 13:33:31 I like the Tab Bar example 13:34:02 Android charts are a nightmare 13:34:16 q+ 13:34:17 jj: not so many charts, Android charts are difficult to make accessible 13:34:17 SongBirdCharts is a good resource if folks are interested, but it's old 13:34:29 q+ 13:34:30 ack GleidsonRamos 13:34:31 q+ 13:34:35 q+ 13:35:04 GleidsonRamos: link with iOT, control the lights of the house. Use sensory characterictits to show if sth is on or off 13:35:43 jj: if you are blind, could be difficult to know if the lights are on or off 13:35:43 q- 13:36:06 ack Jamie 13:36:07 ack Joe_Humbert 13:36:21 I love https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/sensory-characteristics.html - great discussion around it 13:36:41 agree to adding haptics 13:36:51 to the list 13:36:53 Joe_Humbert: what we could add to this def is haptic feedback, it is a sensory characteristic. 13:37:15 Joe_Humbert: more used on mobile devices as on desktop 13:37:34 jj: open list, haptics could be on this list 13:37:47 jj: cannot think of any example where there is only haptics 13:37:55 jj: maybe there are some examples there 13:38:17 I think it's still good to add because devs may not realise that not all devices have haptics 13:38:27 q+ 13:38:32 or even haptics enabled 13:38:35 ack AlainVagner 13:39:25 Where ICT is non-web software that provides a user interface, it shall satisfy the WCAG 2.1 Success Criterion 1.3.3 13:39:25 Sensory Characteristics 13:39:35 q+ 13:39:53 AlainVagner: in EN 301 549 they haven't added anything to this criterion 13:39:57 ack Detlev 13:40:18 it could be as simple as just an matf note to 1.3.3 to specifically mention haptics? 13:40:32 Detlev: in the european Norm there are some SC in section 5 about physical characteristics 13:41:11 https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_en/301500_301599/301549/03.02.01_60/en_301549v030201p.pdf#page=23 13:41:46 Detlev: we could check those things, in table A.2 for mobile apps 13:42:11 +1 to Joe 13:42:29 q+ 13:42:36 ack Jamie 13:42:37 jj: could be a note 13:43:10 jamie: should be thinking about adding techniques? they are not available in the WCAG understanding document 13:43:50 jj: techniques are meant for the web. 13:43:53 q+ 13:44:00 jamie: could we push to have more inclusive techniques 13:44:02 q+ 13:44:55 jamie: our document could include techniques, at least discuss how haptics could be used in an accessible way 13:45:07 jamie: in a non prescriptive way but as a guidance 13:45:29 jj: could be difficult on the same document, but could be done 13:45:39 ack Joe_Humbert 13:46:11 Joe_Humbert: reach out to WCAG3 group, working on this kind of stuff, we could reuse the existing work 13:46:26 Joe_Humbert: things that we could review and fill the gaps 13:46:44 jj: WCAG 3 transforming to be more platform agnostic 13:46:53 jj: outcomes more platform agnostic 13:46:57 https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#haptic-stimulation 13:47:08 jj: agree would be great to learn if they are really considering native mobile 13:47:29 jj: setup a meeting with WCAG2ICT, to discuss issues raised in our group, like set of software 13:47:42 WCAG 3.0 does include haptics 13:47:46 jj: see how we could backport some of our guidance to WCAG2ICT 13:49:00 WCAG2ICT should realistically have haptics as well 13:49:05 q? 13:49:09 jj: more collaboration is needed here with the other groups, as mentioned in our work statement 13:49:10 ack Detlev 13:50:03 detlev: active in WCAG3. just good to know that it will take some time. Not yet at the stage where they are writing techniques. the active group is quite small 13:50:25 Detlev: good to do sth on techniques, if there is a clear way to test on mobile 13:50:35 sth? 13:50:44 *something 13:51:05 (sorry globish abbreviation) 13:51:21 jj: agrees 13:52:35 AlainVagner has joined #matf 13:53:05 Detlev: other groups want to avoid scope creep 13:53:40 jj: would be nice to reach consensus on some SC 13:53:50 can we move to the next agenda item? 13:53:58 jj: mentions appt.org and ?? other resources 13:54:12 agendum+ 13:54:23 scribe: AlainVagner 13:54:26 q+ 13:54:29 agendum+ 13:54:50 q+ 13:55:30 jj: the examples of "essential" are outdated 13:55:43 +1 to JJ that the examples in WCAG are not essential 13:56:30 q+ 13:56:33 Should this be AA? I would argue A 13:56:39 jj: what would be the situations where an orientation is essential? 13:56:44 ack quintinb 13:56:47 q? 13:57:51 https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#orientation is Level AA 13:57:52 I was wrong, this is AA; @JJ shold we discuss later 13:57:53 quintinb: how it was defined for web? why like this? 13:58:07 quintinb: this should be an A for mobile 13:58:21 it was added in 2.1 13:58:22 q+ 13:58:32 I think the main ides was to support web on mobile devices better 13:58:54 ack AlainVagner 13:59:56 q- 14:00:04 AlainVagner: very common issue, could have some techniques to help developers 14:00:17 ack Jamie 14:00:28 I have to drop I'll bring it up next timne 14:00:38 jj: issues will be created upfront 14:00:54 jj: will think about a new organisation 14:01:08 present+ 14:01:26 Zakim, list participants 14:01:26 As of this point the attendees have been JJ, AlainVagner, Joe_Humbert, Jamie, quintinb, Detlev 14:01:35 rrsagent, make minutes 14:01:36 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/03-matf-minutes.html AlainVagner 14:01:57 rrsagent, bye 14:01:57 I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/07/03-matf-actions.rdf : 14:01:57 ACTION: Create issues for the Success Criteria before the meeting for them starts [1] 14:01:57 recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/07/03-matf-irc#T13-06-04 14:01:59 present+ GleidsonRamos