IRC log of matf on 2024-07-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:56:36 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #matf
12:56:41 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/07/03-matf-irc
12:56:41 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:56:42 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
12:56:46 [JJ]
Zakim, this is MATF July 3, 2024
12:56:46 [Zakim]
got it, JJ
12:56:55 [JJ]
Meeting: MATF July 3, 2024
12:57:43 [JJ]
agenda+ Updates
12:57:51 [JJ]
agenda+ 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics - Level A
12:57:57 [JJ]
agenda+ 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A
12:57:58 [Joe_Humbert]
Joe_Humbert has joined #matf
12:58:03 [JJ]
agenda+ 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A
12:58:15 [JJ]
agenda+ Guidance setup
12:58:28 [JJ]
zakim, agenda?
12:58:28 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
12:58:29 [Zakim]
1. Updates [from JJ]
12:58:29 [Zakim]
2. 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics - Level A [from JJ]
12:58:29 [Zakim]
3. 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A [from JJ]
12:58:29 [Zakim]
4. 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A [from JJ]
12:58:29 [Zakim]
5. Guidance setup [from JJ]
12:58:32 [JJ]
move to next agendum
12:58:32 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Updates -- taken up [from JJ]
12:58:34 [JJ]
present+
12:59:32 [AlainVagner]
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12:59:51 [JJ]
regrets+ Audrey
13:00:04 [JJ]
regrets+ Julian
13:01:57 [AlainVagner]
present+
13:02:57 [Joe_Humbert]
present+
13:03:29 [Jamie]
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13:03:34 [Jamie]
present+
13:04:31 [GleidsonRamos]
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13:05:08 [JJ]
Github issues overview: https://github.com/w3c/matf/issues
13:05:57 [Jamie]
+1 to Quinton's suggestion
13:06:04 [JJ]
Action: Create issues for the Success Criteria before the meeting for them starts
13:07:56 [quintinb]
quintinb has joined #MATF
13:08:02 [AlainVagner]
https://github.com/w3c/matf/wiki/IRC-Cheatsheet
13:09:21 [Detlev]
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13:09:46 [Detlev]
q+
13:09:55 [JJ]
ack Detlev
13:09:59 [quintinb]
present+
13:10:02 [AlainVagner]
scribe: AlainVagner
13:10:13 [AlainVagner]
ack Detlev
13:10:43 [AlainVagner]
agenda+ Closed Functionality (WCAG2ICT)
13:10:53 [AlainVagner]
agenda+ 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics - Level A
13:11:04 [AlainVagner]
agenda+ 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A
13:11:15 [AlainVagner]
agenda+ 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A
13:11:25 [AlainVagner]
agenda+ Guidance setup
13:11:55 [AlainVagner]
Detlev: there is an ongoing discussion about keyboard accessibility, should be discuss it in the frame of this call?
13:12:12 [AlainVagner]
Detlev: would be interesting to build consensus around those practices
13:13:01 [AlainVagner]
jj: can be discussed in the frame of the "guidance setup" agendum
13:13:17 [GleidsonRamos]
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13:13:20 [AlainVagner]
jj: for now go through all the SC, and then see where discussion is happening
13:13:37 [AlainVagner]
jj: will take a couple of months to go through all the SC
13:14:00 [AlainVagner]
jj: special points can be brought to the agenda to be discussed
13:14:20 [AlainVagner]
jj: discussions to improve the process and to make it quicker
13:14:25 [Detlev]
q+
13:14:54 [AlainVagner]
jj: 10 weeks to go though all SC
13:15:02 [AlainVagner]
ack Detlev
13:15:03 [Jamie]
10 weeks just for AA
13:15:08 [Jamie]
I mean A
13:15:22 [JJ]
zakim, agenda?
13:15:22 [Zakim]
I see 10 items remaining on the agenda:
13:15:23 [Zakim]
1. Updates [from JJ]
13:15:23 [Zakim]
2. 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics - Level A [from JJ]
13:15:23 [Zakim]
3. 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A [from JJ]
13:15:23 [Zakim]
4. 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A [from JJ]
13:15:23 [Zakim]
5. Guidance setup [from JJ]
13:15:23 [Zakim]
6. Closed Functionality (WCAG2ICT) [from AlainVagner]
13:15:23 [Zakim]
7. 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics - Level A [from AlainVagner]
13:15:24 [Zakim]
8. 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A [from AlainVagner]
13:15:24 [Zakim]
9. 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A [from AlainVagner]
13:15:24 [Zakim]
10. Guidance setup [from AlainVagner]
13:15:37 [Jamie]
q+
13:15:43 [AlainVagner]
agenda - 6
13:15:49 [AlainVagner]
agenda- 7
13:15:55 [AlainVagner]
agenda- 8
13:15:58 [AlainVagner]
agenda-9
13:16:05 [AlainVagner]
agenda- 10
13:16:17 [AlainVagner]
zakim, agenda?
13:16:17 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
13:16:18 [Zakim]
1. Updates [from JJ]
13:16:18 [Zakim]
2. 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics - Level A [from JJ]
13:16:18 [Zakim]
3. 1.3.4 Orientation - Level A [from JJ]
13:16:18 [Zakim]
4. 1.4.1 Use of Color - Level A [from JJ]
13:16:18 [Zakim]
5. Guidance setup [from JJ]
13:16:51 [AlainVagner]
jj: meeting minutes for all the previous meetings are available in the calendar
13:17:26 [JJ]
Past MATF meetings with minutes: https://www.w3.org/groups/tf/mobile-a11y-tf/calendar/?past=1&tf=0
13:18:18 [Jamie]
q+
13:18:34 [quintinb]
q+
13:18:47 [AlainVagner]
ack Jamie
13:18:54 [JJ]
Be right back...
13:19:23 [JJ]
Back (laptop lost power)
13:19:31 [AlainVagner]
jamie: use the call to talk about discussions that happened in smaller settings
13:20:06 [AlainVagner]
jamie: focus more on update from smaller groups
13:20:27 [AlainVagner]
jamie: split the tasks among sub-groups
13:21:18 [Detlev]
+1 to Jamie
13:21:37 [AlainVagner]
jamie: possibility to split by principles
13:21:41 [Joe_Humbert]
original work statement: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q5ggj1BedAKlxugFn9xxahKbKgZeeZsxytdw-o1HQsE/edit#heading=h.su244eodr52k
13:21:56 [AlainVagner]
jj: groups could be done based on interests
13:22:57 [AlainVagner]
jamie: draft from 2018 still refers to 2.0, could be updated to 2.1 and 2.2
13:23:17 [AlainVagner]
jamie: goal could be to have a draft for the end of the year
13:23:56 [AlainVagner]
jj: finish A an AA by september
13:24:05 [Jamie]
^ that last one was a question, what was the goal?
13:24:16 [AlainVagner]
jj: agree, we should work on a draft
13:24:20 [Detlev]
q+
13:24:36 [AlainVagner]
q?
13:24:40 [Joe_Humbert]
q+
13:24:55 [AlainVagner]
jj: SC from 2.1 and 2.2 have not yet been discussed
13:25:09 [AlainVagner]
jj: we should restructure the way of working a little bit
13:25:22 [JJ]
ack quintinb
13:25:59 [AlainVagner]
quintinb: github issue for all the tickets, have a checklist for each SC to know if they have reached a critical mass
13:26:15 [Detlev]
+1 to quintinb
13:26:17 [AlainVagner]
quintinb: might take a bit of time to facilitate
13:26:24 [Jamie]
+1 to Quinton
13:26:36 [JJ]
ack Detlev
13:26:40 [Jamie]
*Quintin
13:27:37 [JJ]
ack Joe_Humbert
13:27:42 [AlainVagner]
detlev: same as quintinb
13:28:09 [AlainVagner]
Joe_Humbert: check doc from 2018, tickets to know what do we wanna keep
13:28:13 [JJ]
https://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/
13:28:33 [AlainVagner]
Joe_Humbert: what would be the new structure, like the previous? like WCAG2ICT? sth else? we cannot start without structure
13:28:44 [AlainVagner]
Joe_Humbert: we need to speed things up
13:29:40 [AlainVagner]
jj: use the W3C tool for official doc, take a look how to use the tool
13:30:10 [JJ]
q?
13:30:37 [AlainVagner]
jj: 2.1.1 will be for the next meeting
13:30:43 [AlainVagner]
agenda+
13:30:58 [AlainVagner]
agendum+
13:30:58 [JJ]
move to next agendum
13:30:58 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- 1.3.3 Sensory Characteristics - Level A -- taken up [from JJ]
13:31:26 [quintinb]
Do we have any bad examples of failures of 1.3.3 failures?
13:31:36 [quintinb]
Sorry examples of failures
13:31:42 [quintinb]
They don't have to be bad
13:32:11 [quintinb]
I suppose line charts are good examples here
13:32:51 [AlainVagner]
jj: don't see this happening too often. Tabbar without text, where the selected tab has another color.
13:33:31 [quintinb]
I like the Tab Bar example
13:34:02 [quintinb]
Android charts are a nightmare
13:34:16 [GleidsonRamos]
q+
13:34:17 [AlainVagner]
jj: not so many charts, Android charts are difficult to make accessible
13:34:17 [quintinb]
SongBirdCharts is a good resource if folks are interested, but it's old
13:34:29 [quintinb]
q+
13:34:30 [JJ]
ack GleidsonRamos
13:34:31 [Jamie]
q+
13:34:35 [Joe_Humbert]
q+
13:35:04 [AlainVagner]
GleidsonRamos: link with iOT, control the lights of the house. Use sensory characterictits to show if sth is on or off
13:35:43 [AlainVagner]
jj: if you are blind, could be difficult to know if the lights are on or off
13:35:43 [quintinb]
q-
13:36:06 [JJ]
ack Jamie
13:36:07 [JJ]
ack Joe_Humbert
13:36:21 [quintinb]
I love https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/sensory-characteristics.html - great discussion around it
13:36:41 [quintinb]
agree to adding haptics
13:36:51 [quintinb]
to the list
13:36:53 [AlainVagner]
Joe_Humbert: what we could add to this def is haptic feedback, it is a sensory characteristic.
13:37:15 [AlainVagner]
Joe_Humbert: more used on mobile devices as on desktop
13:37:34 [AlainVagner]
jj: open list, haptics could be on this list
13:37:47 [AlainVagner]
jj: cannot think of any example where there is only haptics
13:37:55 [AlainVagner]
jj: maybe there are some examples there
13:38:17 [quintinb]
I think it's still good to add because devs may not realise that not all devices have haptics
13:38:27 [AlainVagner]
q+
13:38:32 [quintinb]
or even haptics enabled
13:38:35 [JJ]
ack AlainVagner
13:39:25 [AlainVagner]
Where ICT is non-web software that provides a user interface, it shall satisfy the WCAG 2.1 Success Criterion 1.3.3
13:39:25 [AlainVagner]
Sensory Characteristics
13:39:35 [Detlev]
q+
13:39:53 [AlainVagner]
AlainVagner: in EN 301 549 they haven't added anything to this criterion
13:39:57 [JJ]
ack Detlev
13:40:18 [Joe_Humbert]
it could be as simple as just an matf note to 1.3.3 to specifically mention haptics?
13:40:32 [AlainVagner]
Detlev: in the european Norm there are some SC in section 5 about physical characteristics
13:41:11 [AlainVagner]
https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_en/301500_301599/301549/03.02.01_60/en_301549v030201p.pdf#page=23
13:41:46 [AlainVagner]
Detlev: we could check those things, in table A.2 for mobile apps
13:42:11 [Jamie]
+1 to Joe
13:42:29 [Jamie]
q+
13:42:36 [JJ]
ack Jamie
13:42:37 [AlainVagner]
jj: could be a note
13:43:10 [AlainVagner]
jamie: should be thinking about adding techniques? they are not available in the WCAG understanding document
13:43:50 [AlainVagner]
jj: techniques are meant for the web.
13:43:53 [Joe_Humbert]
q+
13:44:00 [AlainVagner]
jamie: could we push to have more inclusive techniques
13:44:02 [Detlev]
q+
13:44:55 [AlainVagner]
jamie: our document could include techniques, at least discuss how haptics could be used in an accessible way
13:45:07 [AlainVagner]
jamie: in a non prescriptive way but as a guidance
13:45:29 [AlainVagner]
jj: could be difficult on the same document, but could be done
13:45:39 [JJ]
ack Joe_Humbert
13:46:11 [AlainVagner]
Joe_Humbert: reach out to WCAG3 group, working on this kind of stuff, we could reuse the existing work
13:46:26 [AlainVagner]
Joe_Humbert: things that we could review and fill the gaps
13:46:44 [AlainVagner]
jj: WCAG 3 transforming to be more platform agnostic
13:46:53 [AlainVagner]
jj: outcomes more platform agnostic
13:46:57 [Jamie]
https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#haptic-stimulation
13:47:08 [AlainVagner]
jj: agree would be great to learn if they are really considering native mobile
13:47:29 [AlainVagner]
jj: setup a meeting with WCAG2ICT, to discuss issues raised in our group, like set of software
13:47:42 [Jamie]
WCAG 3.0 does include haptics
13:47:46 [AlainVagner]
jj: see how we could backport some of our guidance to WCAG2ICT
13:49:00 [Jamie]
WCAG2ICT should realistically have haptics as well
13:49:05 [JJ]
q?
13:49:09 [AlainVagner]
jj: more collaboration is needed here with the other groups, as mentioned in our work statement
13:49:10 [JJ]
ack Detlev
13:50:03 [AlainVagner]
detlev: active in WCAG3. just good to know that it will take some time. Not yet at the stage where they are writing techniques. the active group is quite small
13:50:25 [AlainVagner]
Detlev: good to do sth on techniques, if there is a clear way to test on mobile
13:50:35 [Jamie]
sth?
13:50:44 [AlainVagner]
*something
13:51:05 [AlainVagner]
(sorry globish abbreviation)
13:51:21 [AlainVagner]
jj: agrees
13:52:35 [AlainVagner]
AlainVagner has joined #matf
13:53:05 [AlainVagner]
Detlev: other groups want to avoid scope creep
13:53:40 [AlainVagner]
jj: would be nice to reach consensus on some SC
13:53:50 [Jamie]
can we move to the next agenda item?
13:53:58 [AlainVagner]
jj: mentions appt.org and ?? other resources
13:54:12 [AlainVagner]
agendum+
13:54:23 [AlainVagner]
scribe: AlainVagner
13:54:26 [quintinb]
q+
13:54:29 [AlainVagner]
agendum+
13:54:50 [AlainVagner]
q+
13:55:30 [AlainVagner]
jj: the examples of "essential" are outdated
13:55:43 [Jamie]
+1 to JJ that the examples in WCAG are not essential
13:56:30 [Joe_Humbert]
q+
13:56:33 [quintinb]
Should this be AA? I would argue A
13:56:39 [AlainVagner]
jj: what would be the situations where an orientation is essential?
13:56:44 [JJ]
ack quintinb
13:56:47 [JJ]
q?
13:57:51 [Joe_Humbert]
https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG22/#orientation is Level AA
13:57:52 [Jamie]
I was wrong, this is AA; @JJ shold we discuss later
13:57:53 [AlainVagner]
quintinb: how it was defined for web? why like this?
13:58:07 [AlainVagner]
quintinb: this should be an A for mobile
13:58:21 [Joe_Humbert]
it was added in 2.1
13:58:22 [Jamie]
q+
13:58:32 [Detlev]
I think the main ides was to support web on mobile devices better
13:58:54 [JJ]
ack AlainVagner
13:59:56 [Joe_Humbert]
q-
14:00:04 [AlainVagner]
AlainVagner: very common issue, could have some techniques to help developers
14:00:17 [JJ]
ack Jamie
14:00:28 [Joe_Humbert]
I have to drop I'll bring it up next timne
14:00:38 [AlainVagner]
jj: issues will be created upfront
14:00:54 [AlainVagner]
jj: will think about a new organisation
14:01:08 [Detlev]
present+
14:01:26 [AlainVagner]
Zakim, list participants
14:01:26 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been JJ, AlainVagner, Joe_Humbert, Jamie, quintinb, Detlev
14:01:35 [AlainVagner]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:01:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/03-matf-minutes.html AlainVagner
14:01:57 [AlainVagner]
rrsagent, bye
14:01:57 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in https://www.w3.org/2024/07/03-matf-actions.rdf :
14:01:57 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Create issues for the Success Criteria before the meeting for them starts [1]
14:01:57 [RRSAgent]
recorded in https://www.w3.org/2024/07/03-matf-irc#T13-06-04
14:01:59 [JJ]
present+ GleidsonRamos