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14:53:59 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:54:00 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
14:54:32 <alastairc> agenda+ Announcements
14:55:18 <alastairc> agenda+ WCAG 2.x issues https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2-issues/2024Jun/0009.html
14:56:57 <Jennie_Delisi> Jennie_Delisi has joined #ag
14:57:40 <Chuck> agenda?
14:58:02 <alastairc> Review consolidation - including moving the adjustment requirements https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/101
14:58:05 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #ag
14:58:05 <alastairc> agenda+ Review consolidation - including moving the adjustment requirements https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/101
14:58:33 <alastairc> agenda+ Review Template for the subgroups https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MHJwOWJhGZS4zZYiF9ufNfxTmqFf6bf07vNHAAgfylE/edit
14:58:50 <alastairc> agenda+ Assigning prerequisite/baseline/enhanced https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17VJvnm5UQW4WUzIoo9QNPVGfePgaZa8ifZWs-wtmv7E/edit#slide=id.g2e950361df5_0_11
14:59:25 <alastairc> agenda?
14:59:27 <laura> present+ Laura_Carlson
14:59:37 <laura> present+ Laura_Carlson
14:59:42 <Chuck> agenda?
14:59:54 <laura> Scribe: laura
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15:00:11 <Jennie_Delisi> present+
15:00:14 <mike_beganyi> present+
15:00:21 <bruce_bailey> present+
15:00:46 <Rachael> Present+
15:00:54 <alastairc> present+
15:00:56 <alastairc> chair:alastairc
15:01:30 <Francis_Storr> present+
15:01:36 <laura> You're welcome :-)
15:01:56 <dj> dj has joined #ag
15:01:59 <dj> present+
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15:02:27 <Makoto> present+
15:02:38 <filippo-zorzi> present+
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15:03:24 <bruce_bailey> s/You're welcome :-)//
15:03:34 <laura> ag: welcome everyone.
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15:03:58 <giacomo-petri> present+
15:04:01 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
15:04:01 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from alastairc]
15:04:12 <alastairc> https://www.w3.org/2024/09/TPAC/
15:04:14 <kirkwood> present+
15:04:17 <jtoles> present+
15:04:18 <laura> ac: TPAC 2024 registration is now open: https://www.w3.org/2024/09/TPAC/
15:04:38 <mbgower> mbgower has joined #ag
15:04:41 <laura> ... early bird ticket time.
15:04:42 <Azlan> Azlan has joined #ag
15:04:45 <mbgower> present+
15:04:49 <Azlan> present+
15:05:46 <laura> chuck: Guidance on Applying WCAG 2 to Non-Web Information and Communications Technologies (WCAG2ICT) was appoved.
15:05:54 <avon> avon has joined #ag
15:06:06 <avon> present+
15:06:10 <GN015> GN015 has joined #ag
15:06:16 <bruce_bailey> WCAG2ICT email:  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wai-announce/2024JulSep/0000.html
15:06:26 <laura> Maryjo: it is out for review. comments due by august 5
15:06:41 <laura> ... next pubilcation will be as a note.
15:06:48 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
15:06:48 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- WCAG 2.x issues https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2-issues/2024Jun/0009.html -- taken up [from alastairc]
15:07:07 <Rain> Rain has joined #ag
15:07:15 <Rain> present+
15:07:18 <mbgower> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/56/views/1
15:07:21 <laura> ac: email went out 24 Jun 2024 . one normative change.
15:07:35 <laura> ... Change <ol> to <ul> when no order is intended (normative)
15:07:57 <laura> ... #3756<https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/3756>
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15:08:17 <maryjom> present+
15:08:20 <bruce_bailey> Emal:  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2024AprJun/0143.html
15:08:42 <laura> mg: will pick them up as a cfc. No date in mind yet.
15:09:16 <laura> ... we are queing them up.
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15:09:32 <Jon_avila> present+
15:09:36 <bruce_bailey> s/Emal/AG WG email/
15:09:47 <laura> ... 10 things for WG approval.
15:10:31 <laura> ... please provide feedback. For proposed substantive or editorial changes. Give a thumbs up on the pull request description to agree. (We are looking for >4)
15:10:35 <wendyreid> wendyreid has joined #ag
15:10:41 <laura> ... Or provide feedback in the Conversation to request changes
15:10:49 <wendyreid> present+
15:10:50 <laura> ... Based on feedback, those changes will be merged or brought back for another review.
15:11:09 <laura> ... For proposed draft responses to issues, give a thumbs up or comment.
15:11:23 <alastairc> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wcag2-issues/2024Jun/0009.html
15:11:30 <laura> ac: we have one normative change.
15:12:15 <alastairc> q?
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15:12:29 <dan_bjorge> present+
15:12:35 <laura> ... please review proposed changes.
15:12:42 <Detlev> present+
15:13:09 <laura> mg: the email has info on how participate in future task force work.
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15:13:34 <ToddL> present+
15:13:49 <laura> mg: we have reduced the number of issues. we are making progress.
15:14:16 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
15:14:16 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review consolidation - including moving the adjustment requirements https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/101 -- taken up [from alastairc]
15:14:47 <laura> ac: on open discussion on Consolidating Outcomes.
15:15:27 <laura> ... we have a proposal: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GL-jyZ7CuYb-fms_jTKEe1YTAUZAH0EXkU3yqbRg5f4/edit#heading=h.8n8glns7lrs4
15:17:12 <Detlev> q+
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15:18:29 <laura> ... user control outcomes move them into other appropoate areas.
15:18:35 <alastairc> ack Detlev
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15:19:28 <laura> detlev: aim to distribute all of them?  and have just a few left?
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15:19:48 <Jen_G> Present+
15:20:18 <laura> ac: there is a balance. We don't have  place to put some of them.
15:20:53 <laura> ... color may end up in 2 of 3 places. may cauase some duplication.
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15:20:59 <Detlev> q+
15:21:04 <tburtin> present+
15:21:06 <alastairc> ack Detlev
15:21:06 <laura> ... any thoughts?
15:21:42 <laura> detlev: idea would be to split them where needed.
15:21:56 <GN015> q+
15:22:11 <laura> ... likely can be a clear split.
15:23:23 <Detlev> that may be a good reason to distribute them - agree
15:23:36 <laura> ac: can have preq. so they are related. So it might not work if they are all separated.
15:23:39 <alastairc> ack GN015
15:23:44 <alastairc> ack gn
15:24:44 <alastairc> q+
15:25:08 <laura> gn: themes need to be protected agianst manipulation by browser. Don't see how 2 really connect.
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15:25:25 <Kimberly> present+
15:25:37 <TheoHale> present+
15:26:06 <laura> ac: preq. or baseling could say somethiong about respecting user prefs.
15:26:41 <laura> ... trying to constuct decsion trees in the right place.
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15:27:18 <laura> gn: if app provides themes, then this exceeds the baseline requirements?
15:27:27 <laura> ac: yes.
15:28:25 <laura> ... make a progression from user agents to author responsibility.
15:28:52 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/101
15:29:16 <laura> ... please add your comments to the discussion.
15:29:29 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
15:29:29 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, alastairc
15:30:00 <alastairc> q?
15:30:04 <alastairc> ack alastairc
15:30:04 <laura> rm: address top 3  outcomes?
15:30:21 <bruce_bailey> q+
15:30:26 <alastairc> ack bruce_bailey
15:30:40 <laura> bruce: It feels to me like a category error to have seizure triggers in the same grouping as Avoiding Motion and Audio Shifting.
15:30:49 <alastairc> q+
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15:31:02 <ljoakley> present+
15:31:07 <laura> ... they are not safety issues.
15:31:10 <alastairc> ack alastairc
15:31:10 <kirkwood> disagree, they are safety issues, no?
15:31:17 <Jon_avila> Motion does cause physical effects for people
15:31:38 <Rain> q+
15:31:38 <tburtin> I disagree from lived experience. They can cause significant harm.
15:32:08 <laura> ... from what I have hear, they can be significant issues.
15:32:17 <alastairc> ack Rain
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15:32:25 <laura> ... we may be able to make some distinctions.
15:32:58 <ToddL> Inaccessible motion and animation triggers migraine headaches in my instance, so it does harm
15:33:17 <laura> rain: we had number of people on the task force who have direct experience and research.
15:33:55 <laura> ... it is possible for some people to experience similar levels of harm as flashing.
15:34:02 <GN015> What is "lived experience" in this context?
15:34:27 <alastairc> GN015 - it's a phrase to mean: Someone who has experienced it in their day to day life.
15:34:41 <bruce_bailey> thank you
15:34:42 <mbgower> q+ to say isn't this a system requirement for mono?
15:35:04 <laura> ... risk of fainting could be potentially life-threatening.
15:35:08 <kirkwood> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2631498/
15:35:10 <TheoHale> +q
15:35:19 <GN015> I see, thank you.
15:35:24 <alastairc> ack mbgower
15:35:24 <Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say isn't this a system requirement for mono?
15:35:52 <laura> mg: not sure how you would measure the threshold.
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15:36:28 <laura> ... is it an author responsibility?
15:36:35 <Jon_avila> It's an author responsibility when using platform mono would loss functionality.
15:37:08 <alastairc> ack TheoHale
15:37:08 <laura> ac: could be system. could be an author.
15:37:27 <laura> TheoHale: what is the criteria?
15:38:03 <mbgower> q+ to say that then isn't the requirement something like a non-audio indicator of location-specific sound
15:38:23 <laura> ... may not fit in the category but may be harder to define and figure out.
15:38:56 <laura> ac: some outcomes may be met automatically.
15:39:36 <alastairc> ack mbgower
15:39:36 <Zakim> mbgower, you wanted to say that then isn't the requirement something like a non-audio indicator of location-specific sound
15:39:43 <laura> ... we are approaching this differently than WCAG 2.
15:41:24 <alastairc> q?
15:41:25 <laura> mg: audio shifing  is in not these ones. We need to be concerned with  an outcome for what the information conveys.
15:41:30 <mbgower> In other words, doing no harm is the top requirement, but another requirement which is NOT as critical  is 'provide the information another way'
15:41:38 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/101
15:41:45 <laura> ... doing no harm is the top requirement.
15:41:47 <alastairc> zakim, take up next item
15:41:47 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review Template for the subgroups https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MHJwOWJhGZS4zZYiF9ufNfxTmqFf6bf07vNHAAgfylE/edit -- taken up [from alastairc]
15:42:29 <laura> ac: will be assigning people to the subgoups.
15:42:40 <kirkwood> link to survey?
15:42:56 <alastairc> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/subgroups-june-24/
15:43:27 <Chuck> The survey is presently open until July 8
15:43:38 <laura> ... we will be filling in the outcome template.
15:46:07 <laura> ... subgoup will review the previous scratch pad. Gather examples. Constuct a desion tree. Fill in the methods.
15:48:20 <laura> ... Bring back to the AGWG.
15:49:38 <laura> ... We have 2 conformance models to test.
15:51:27 <laura> ... how do we catorize each method.?
15:52:02 <laura> ... Prerequisite  (small subset) Safety Issues, Needed for AT to work, likely to prevent task completion even with ideal AT support.
15:52:25 <laura> ... Baseline (larger subset) -
15:52:25 <laura> Baseline (larger subset) - Author provided methods that aren’t currently met by AT, applicable to all sites and products.
15:52:33 <alastairc> q?
15:52:47 <laura> ... Enhanced: Can be met in other ways, or  may be domain specific.
15:53:36 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17VJvnm5UQW4WUzIoo9QNPVGfePgaZa8ifZWs-wtmv7E/edit#slide=id.g2e950361df5_0_27
15:54:38 <laura> ac: we can start going through an example.
15:56:20 <laura> ... make a copy of the template.
15:56:51 <laura> ... look at the scratchpad and find the outcomes.
15:59:23 <laura> ... go though the information and create a Decision Tree.
15:59:31 <Chuck> q+ to ask for a scribe change
15:59:39 <laura> ... could be very basic.
15:59:48 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:59:48 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to ask for a scribe change
16:00:23 <laura> ...Any questions?
16:00:35 <Chuck> q?
16:01:00 <Chuck> agenda?
16:01:32 <laura> s/prerequisits/prerequisites/
16:01:37 <bruce_bailey> q+
16:01:46 <laura> ... please sign up for a subgroup.
16:01:46 <alastairc> ack bruce_bailey
16:01:50 <Chuck> ack bri
16:02:20 <laura> Bruce: some of the subgoup work will be a tis meeting time?
16:03:01 <laura> ... it is a consideration.
16:03:43 <alastairc> zakim, end meeting
16:03:43 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been dj, Francis_Storr, rscano, alastairc, Rachael, julierawe, shadi, JakeAbma, Laura_Carlson, bruce_bailey, Kimberly, sarahhorton, fofila,
16:03:47 <Zakim> ... kirkwood, jtoles, MaryJo, kevin, mike_beganyi, tburtin, giacomo-petri, FrankieWolf, Detlev, GreggVan, Frankie, Jennie_Delisi, jaunita_george, MJ, dan_bjorge, Graham, ljoakley,
16:03:47 <Zakim> ... mbgower, JenStrickland, avkuo, ToddL, maryjom, Makoto, Poornima, Ben_Tillyer, filippo-zorzi, Glenda, Gez, scotto, Jen_G, Azlan, avon, Rain, Jon_avila, wendyreid, TheoHale
16:03:47 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v1
16:03:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/02-ag-minutes.html Zakim
16:03:55 <laura> s/prereq/prerequisites/
16:03:55 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, alastairc; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:03:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ag
16:04:24 <laura> s/think its realistic /think it is realistic /
16:04:43 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fw0-q4_iZPZ44_PmvUbJBH8CtQtxwXEXlJ3jac1T5JY/edit?gid=1073399112#gid=1073399112
16:05:20 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/02-ag-minutes.html laura
16:06:36 <mbgower> q+
16:06:39 <laura> s/was appoved/was approved/
16:06:49 <alastairc> q?
16:07:39 <laura> s/pubilcation /pubilcation /
16:08:19 <Chuck> q?
16:08:34 <laura> s/queing /queuing /
16:08:44 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cNu7Un_pa-rTKKIosLB6cS6Ic8QArGELJkINchvaUME/edit#heading=h.8n8glns7lrs4
16:09:05 <laura> s/appropoate /appropriate /
16:09:20 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/16Njhx88F2LhwcElu74Jgynx-cRmLJkQONt9hGBJ9Cm8/edit#heading=h.qai4hld5jxjt
16:09:55 <laura> s/may cauase /It may cause /
16:10:27 <laura> s/agianst /against /
16:10:34 <alastairc> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MHJwOWJhGZS4zZYiF9ufNfxTmqFf6bf07vNHAAgfylE/edit
16:11:33 <laura> s/preq. or baseling could say somethiong /perquisite or baseline could say something /
16:12:44 <laura> s/constuct decsion /construct decision /
16:13:43 <laura> s/shifing/shifting/
16:14:08 <laura> s/subgoups/subgroups/
16:14:45 <laura> s/subgoup /subgroup /
16:15:29 <laura> s/catorize /categorize /
16:16:03 <laura> s/though /through /
16:16:54 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
16:16:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/02-ag-minutes.html laura
16:18:10 <mbgower> it's made by a German director, but speaking of clean cities in Japan, this beautiful quite film about a public toilet cleaner was one of my favourite films this past year https://www.perfectdays-movie.jp/en/
16:18:23 <mbgower> s/quite/quiet
16:18:24 <laura> s/pubilcation /publication /
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16:19:14 <laura> s/subgoup /subgroup /
16:20:14 <laura> s/Constuct a desion /Construct a decision /
16:20:59 <laura> rrsagent, make minutes
16:21:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/07/02-ag-minutes.html laura
16:23:59 <laura> s/tis meeting time/this meeting time/
16:24:34 <laura> s/will be a/will be at/
16:35:10 <mbgower> Since we're talking about geeky collections of physical items (sometimes digitized...) here is my non-classical collections of LPs (not 45s) https://rateyourmusic.com/collection/mbgower/visual/
16:35:41 <alastairc> There is overlap, I've got the movie of Amadeus!
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16:41:46 <giacomo-petri> Amadeus is one of my favourites!
16:42:07 <giacomo-petri> How Salieri describes Mozart's music is so great
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16:50:47 <laura> zakim, end meeting
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