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15:56:48 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-rdf-star-irc
15:56:54 <Kurt> q+
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15:57:08 <ktk> meeting:  RDF-Star WG biweekly meeting
15:57:14 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240627T120000/
15:57:15 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:57:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2024/06/13-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2024/06/20-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:57:15 <agendabot> agenda+ No meeting 4th of July
15:57:15 <agendabot> agenda+ Proposal for next week's discussion
15:57:16 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
15:57:19 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
15:57:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
15:58:21 <gkellogg> present+
15:58:22 <AndyS> present+
15:58:39 <pfps> present+
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16:00:04 <gtw> present+
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16:01:18 <Tpt> present+
16:01:20 <ktk> present+
16:01:21 <Tpt> scribe: Tpt
16:01:23 <ora> present+
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16:01:37 <TallTed> present+
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16:01:39 <Dominik_T> present+
16:01:43 <eBremer> present+
16:02:09 <AZ> present+
16:02:17 <niklasl> present+
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16:02:55 <ora> chair: ora
16:03:25 <ktk> Zakim, open item 1
16:03:25 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2024/06/13-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2024/06/20-rdf-star-minutes.html --
16:03:28 <draggett> draggett has joined #rdf-star
16:03:29 <Zakim> ... taken up [from agendabot]
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16:03:36 <draggett> present+
16:03:40 <doerthe> present+
16:03:43 <ktk> regrets+ souri
16:03:46 <AZ> In the minutes of meeting 13th June, we can add myself in the "regrets" section
16:03:57 <pfps> both minutes look fine
16:04:00 <Tpt> ora: Minutes again, anybody has a concern?
16:04:33 <ora> PROPOSAL: Accept the last two meetings' minutes?
16:04:38 <gkellogg> +1
16:04:40 <ora> +1
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16:04:42 <Tpt> +1
16:04:42 <AndyS> +1
16:04:45 <TallTed> +1
16:04:45 <eBremer> +1
16:04:45 <niklasl> +1
16:04:46 <tl> present+
16:04:48 <gtw> +1
16:04:49 <ktk> +1
16:04:52 <pfps> +1
16:04:57 <AZ> +1
16:05:00 <doerthe> +1
16:05:01 <tl> +1
16:05:02 <Dominik_T> +0 (absent)
16:05:19 <ora> RESOLVED: Accept the last two meetings' minutes
16:05:28 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:05:28 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ktk
16:05:30 <Kurt> +1
16:05:32 <ktk> q?
16:06:04 <Tpt> ora: side note, I am happy that we see 16 people, it's excellent
16:06:04 <ora> ack Kurt
16:06:08 <Kurt> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/Proposal:-Named-Node-Expressions
16:06:51 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:06:51 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- No meeting 4th of July -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:06:52 <Kurt> q-
16:06:52 <Tpt> Kurt: I have a proposal ^ and  ask to have some time to discuss it
16:07:08 <Tpt> ora: Everybody can read the proposal
16:07:55 <Tpt> ora: Next week is 4th of July, public holiday in US. I do not intend to work and I guess other people too. The logical thing would be to cancel the meeting. Thoughts?
16:08:21 <pfps> some of us in North America do not celebrate the fourht
16:08:45 <Tpt> ora: It means we shift the schedule
16:09:14 <ktk> q?
16:09:17 <tl> btw, will we have a pause for western hemisphere summer vacations?
16:11:16 <Tpt> ora: I think we can cancel the meeting
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16:12:08 <fsasaki> present+
16:12:19 <pfps> I plan on being available throughout August
16:12:49 <Tpt> ora: I am availlable most of August
16:13:06 <Tpt> ktk: We have not done formal breaks
16:13:15 <Tpt> ora: should we do a pool
16:13:52 <Tpt> ora: let's do a pool
16:14:02 <AndyS> s/pool/poll/
16:14:26 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:14:26 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Proposal for next week's discussion -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:14:34 <TallTed> s/do a pool/do a poll/
16:14:42 <AndyS> q+
16:14:47 <ora> ack AndyS
16:14:51 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:14:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:15:14 <Tpt> AndyS: at the semantic task force we had a good discussion. I can make a summary
16:15:41 <ktk> ACTION: pchampin Adjust the focused meeting agenda in regards to the skipped meeting on July 4th.
16:15:43 <gb> Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe pchampin Adjust the focused meeting agenda in regards is not a valid user for w3c/rdf-star-wg?
16:15:54 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:15:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:16:01 <ktk> RRSAgent, make minutes public
16:16:01 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', ktk.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:16:11 <ktk> RRSAgent, make log lic
16:16:16 <ktk> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:16:30 <Tpt> AndyS: The observation is that in the general case if we have to deal with opaque URLs, if we consider that RDF is a web data format with the rules of URIs are used, the issues around URIs are less important: eithers the URIs are fresh to you or you adopt them from third pary and you adopt what they mean
16:16:58 <niklasl> +1 a good summary
16:17:03 <Tpt> AndyS: It would be good if we could talk about the usecases
16:17:04 <gkellogg> +1
16:17:04 <AndyS> May'24 semantics: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22minimal-baseline%22
16:17:10 <niklasl> +1 also on use cases
16:17:37 <Tpt> ora: I think we are implicity in agreement
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16:19:36 <Tpt> gkellogg: I think the conclusion we were comming to is that there is no strong support to do anything but transparent terms
16:20:00 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Next focus meeting topic: Respect the conventions on the web for use of IRIs
16:20:05 <ora> +1
16:20:08 <niklasl> +1
16:20:08 <ktk> +1
16:20:08 <gkellogg> +1
16:20:09 <Tpt> +1
16:20:10 <tl> +1
16:20:12 <TallTed> +1
16:20:13 <doerthe> +1
16:20:14 <eBremer> +1
16:20:20 <AndyS> +1
16:20:25 <gtw> +0
16:20:30 <AZ> +0
16:21:01 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Next focus meeting topic: Respect the conventions on the web for use of IRIs
16:21:53 <Tpt> ora: Let's do one more discussion on how should we discribe the disconnect between asserted and unasserted triples
16:22:04 <tl> q+
16:22:10 <ora> ack tl
16:22:33 <Tpt> tl: I can try to give input in a not too long email
16:22:47 <fsasaki> +1 to a summary, would help a lot
16:23:39 <Tpt> gkellogg: We are planning to address Kurt's proposal as well
16:23:57 <Tpt> ktk: we might consider doing a longer meeting if we have a reason for it
16:24:26 <Tpt> ora: there is a chance I won't make it
16:25:02 <tl> unasserted assertions are ambiguous and would profit from a redesign
16:25:54 <Kurt> Topic: Named Node Expressions Proposal
16:26:09 <Tpt> ora: we can treat it as a "background" topic
16:26:10 <tl> q+
16:26:17 <ora> ack tl
16:26:48 <Tpt> tl: I noticed the usecases do not reflect the state of our discussion with stats and occurences
16:27:22 <niklasl> q+
16:27:28 <ora> ack niklasl
16:27:54 <ktk> q+
16:28:17 <ora> ack ktk
16:29:18 <ktk> regrets+ pchampin, enrico
16:29:23 <tl> okay with discussing this in tomorrows semantics/usecase TF meeting
16:29:51 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:29:51 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review of pull requests, available at -> 3 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:30:09 <Kurt> Could someone please post the invite for the Semantics meeting to the IRC?
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16:30:40 <Souri> present+
16:30:41 <pfps> q+
16:30:41 <Tpt> gkellogg: we agreed to merge the rdf:JSON proposal but Peters has more comments
16:31:15 <Tpt> gkellog: I would prefer to merge the PR now and work on subsequent PRs
16:31:41 <ora> ack pfps
16:32:01 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:32:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:32:10 <Tpt> pfps: The PR is not satisfactory. The value space and value mapping are unsatifying
16:32:45 <Tpt> pfps: I can write a mapping that satifies a document but produces '"b"' from the input '"a"'
16:33:24 <Tpt> pfps: The mapping is not trivial. It gots weird things related with UTF-16
16:34:07 <Tpt> gkellogg: I asked for help because I did not feel I am able to move this PR forward. It is the one PR with the most comments. I don't see how we move forward from here
16:34:23 <TallTed> q+
16:34:28 <ora> ack TallTed
16:34:34 <Kurt> q+
16:35:33 <Kurt> q-
16:35:38 <Tpt> TallTed: perhaps it can be step resolving this if Peters can open an issue for each problem he sees in the PR and be very explicit about each issue
16:36:12 <Tpt> TallTed: I think we have a hope to handle it 1 by 1. Even if we don't manage to solve them all we can at least track the problems
16:36:24 <Tpt> TallTed: If we don't do that I am afraid we will move in circles
16:36:46 <pfps> q+
16:37:16 <ora> ack pfps
16:37:30 <Tpt> pfps: That's not a way to run a standards group at all
16:38:08 <ora> q+
16:38:11 <Tpt> pfps: I responded today with a fairly long writing about where the problems are in the current PR
16:38:56 <Tpt> pfps: The current lexical mapping does not say what is the mapping for string
16:39:06 <ktk> q+
16:39:10 <ktk> ack ora
16:39:10 <ora> ack ora
16:39:11 <Tpt> ora: Do we have to find someone outside the group to help us with this?
16:39:25 <Tpt> ora: We could find somebody
16:39:52 <Tpt> ora: This starting to become a quite large issue. It's hard to me to see if this is essential for this group to solve
16:40:14 <Kurt> Can someone post the document link about rdf:json? I've been working with the JSON document object models for a couple of decades.
16:40:30 <AndyS> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/66
16:40:30 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/66 -> Pull Request 66 Updates rdf:JSON value space. (by gkellogg) [spec:substantive]
16:40:39 <Kurt> Thank you.
16:41:19 <Tpt> gkellogg: There is room for improving mappings. If people have objections on text, an efficient way is to suggest an alternate wording
16:41:34 <AndyS> q+
16:42:10 <Tpt> gkellogg: The JSON-LD working group had a look at it yesterday and agreed with the current state
16:42:24 <ora> ack ktk
16:42:28 <AndyS> q-
16:42:57 <Tpt> ktk: I cannot comment on the content but we made an agreement two weeks ago to merge it
16:43:16 <Tpt> ktk: Sadly Peter you got droped when we discussed if you would be fine with it
16:43:20 <pfps> q+
16:43:30 <Tpt> ktk: I think we should merge this PR in its current form
16:43:36 <ktk> q?
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16:43:48 <ora> present+
16:44:12 <Tpt> pfps: I am willing to drop my request for changes. I can try to approve
16:44:28 <gkellogg> Approve using "Review Changes" in https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/66/files
16:44:29 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/pull/66 -> Pull Request 66 Updates rdf:JSON value space. (by gkellogg) [spec:substantive]
16:44:35 <TallTed> q+
16:44:39 <Tpt> pfps: I am fine to take the last comment and turn it into an issue but there current version is not acceptable for an RDF datatype
16:44:40 <ktk> ack pfps
16:44:41 <ora> ack pfps
16:44:47 <ora> ack TallTed
16:45:29 <Tpt> TallTed: I hear you that this is not acceptable at as final result but I believe that this PR makes the document in a better state. It's incremental progress
16:46:59 <Tpt> gkellogg: The JSON-LD added the datatype to the rdf: namespace after a comment on the mailing list
16:47:45 <Tpt> ora: where are we with this entailment algorithm
16:48:04 <ktk> Zakim, next item
16:48:04 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Issue Triage, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:48:21 <Tpt> pfps: I have finally found how to approve the rdf:JSON PR
16:49:49 <AndyS> q+
16:50:22 <Kurt> +q
16:50:45 <Tpt> gkellogg: About https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/86 (datatype canonical mapping). We decided we do not need to provide a canonicalization for rdf datatypes
16:50:46 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/86 -> Issue 86 canonical mappings for datatypes (by pfps) [needs discussion] [spec:enhancement]
16:50:52 <pfps> q+
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16:52:00 <pfps> I'll put together a PR for the canonical mapping issue
16:52:14 <ora> ack AndyS
16:52:14 <pfps> Feel free to give me an action on this
16:53:26 <Tpt> ora: What RDF canonicalization does on datatype
16:53:26 <ora> ack Kurt
16:53:27 <Kurt> https://www.w3.org/community/ixml/2021/03/19/welcome-to-ixml/
16:53:31 <Tpt> AndyS: It does not canonicalize
16:54:42 <Tpt> Kurt: I know Steven have worked on the ixml spec to convert datatype to specific output. It may be possible that conversation with Steven could be productive
16:55:14 <gkellogg> q+
16:55:16 <ora> ack pfps
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16:55:25 <ora> s/Steven/Steven Pemberton/
16:55:41 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:55:51 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:55:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
16:56:06 <Tpt> gkellogg: I don't think we need to spend any time on canonicalization
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