W3C

– DRAFT –
Internationalization Working Group Teleconference

27 June 2024

Attendees

Present
Addison, atsushi, Bert, Fuqiao, JcK, Richard
Regrets
-
Chair
Addison Phillips
Scribe
Bert, xfq

Meeting minutes

Agenda Review

Action Items

<addison> #110

<gb> Action 110 create new latin lreq document to host dpig contents (on r12a) due 2024-06-27

r12a: I've been working on the latin lreq
… I spent quite a lot of time today working on it
… it takes a while

<addison> #109

<gb> Action 109 reply to pub folk about updating dpub-latinreq to point to our (new) document (on aphillips) due 2024-06-27

<addison> close #109

<gb> Closed issue #109

<addison> #107

<gb> Action 107 write an issue about quote auto behavior for non-q elements (on frivoal) due 2024-06-25

<addison> #106

<gb> Action 106 write to ietf group about rfc9457 (on aphillips) due 2024-06-20

<addison> #105

<gb> Action 105 Review https://deploy-preview-87--string-meta.netlify.app/#bp-consumers (on r12a) due 2024-06-13

r12a: Done!

<addison> close #105

<gb> Closed issue #105

<addison> #104

<gb> Action 104 follow up on action#4 by writing an email (on aphillips) due 2024-06-13

<addison> close #104

<gb> Closed issue #104

addison: Respec/bikeshed markup thing. I volnteered r12a and myself to review pull requests.

<addison> #93

<gb> Action 93 create best practices for consumers in string-meta (on aphillips) due 2024-04-25

<addison> #90

<gb> Action 90 steal some of henri's text from scroll-to-text-fragment for string-search (on aphillips) due 2024-04-18

<addison> #89

<gb> Action 89 update i18n specs to support dark mode (on xfq) due 2024-04-18

<addison> #79

<gb> Action 79 schedule a follow-up call with WHATNOT in ~April (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07

addison: I will check when the next call is, probably in 2 weeks.

<addison> #78

<gb> Action 78 compare infra to i18n-glossary export list and report back (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07

addison: I made a set of pending issues against Infra for things in conflict between our two documents

<addison> #33

<gb> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips)

addison: We have some needs-attention issues still open.

<addison> #8

<gb> Action 8 Follow up on the status of Canvas and formatted text (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023

<addison> #7

<gb> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023

<addison> #4

<gb> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on aphillips, r12a) due 27 Jul 2023

Info Share

r12a: I did a bidi webinar on Tuesday. Seems to have gone well. Muchr bigger attention than in past two years.
… 175 was previous record, now 370 registered. 176 or so turned up.
… Another scheduled for August. Topic not yet decided.
… I suggested we hold a 3rd webinar, about creating content that might become localized in to arabic etc.
… about markup, CSS, etc.
… I might do that as a W3C employee then, rather than as myself.
… Got good publicity.

addison: Recorded?

<xfq> r12a++

r12a: Yes, it will be on Youtube.

RADAR Review

<addison> https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/91/views/1

addison: No new incoming requests

xfq: I also reviewed HTML ruby, and found no other issues.

Publishing Urdu counter styles PR

<addison> w3c/predefined-counter-styles#64

<gb> Pull Request 64 index: Add Urdu styles (by r12a)

r12a: Any objections to publishng ^^ ?
… i.e., merge and put on /TR.

addison: Chnages seem more involved than just style.

r12a: Correct. I'm waiting for objections. There are some notes. About alphabetic counters, e.g.
… I've been waiting for a couple of months but got no reactions from CDAC

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_for_Development_of_Advanced_Computing

r12a: CDAC is not the ministry, but they tend to work together. How do I describe them?
… And it is apparently "C-DAC" with a hyphen.

addison: So, shall I merge it?

r12a: Let me first make the chnage xfq suggested.
… It is C-DAC in some places, but not all, not in the logo.

Latin Layout Requirements and DPUB Pagination

r12a: Halfway through creating a template for them.

I18N-glossary vs. Infra

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending+label%3As%3Ainfra

addison: Let's walk through this ^^
… Infra spec defines core terminalogy for WHATWG. And they've been promoting it also for W3C specs.

<addison> i18n-activity#1875

<gb> Issue 1875 Byte descriptions vs. character descriptions (by aphillips) [pending] [needs-resolution] [s:infra] [whatwg]

addison: They have code point string. They strip away some of the core jargon that we have in our spec. Some issues have to do with that.
… They have some specification for how to include byte and character inclusions, and it is different from ours.
… E.g., the namse for characters they chose are not the Unicode names (for bytes).

<addison> i18n-activity#1876

<gb> Issue 1876 Whatwg vs. I18N character styling (by aphillips) [pending] [needs-resolution] [s:infra] [whatwg]

r12a: We might tell them we have ways to do that.

addison: Ours is very systematic and we are adding it to Respec.

r12a: They might not ne impressed.

addison: They should at least allow it, even if they don't adopt it for HTML.

r12a: I don't think it is an issue. But whatn is an issue is that they don't use the UNicode names.
… E.g., when they say "... followed by left parenthis", it is not actually a left paren, it is an opening paren.

JcK: When somebody is reading in order to figure out what to do, all this terminology variations is a source of confusiom and makes things worse. This paren issue is an excellent example.
… Terminology was carefully reviewed and when somebody makes something up, because they don't like it...

addison: The other issues I have are basically about thet. We have over the years made a set of jargon.

<addison> i18n-activity#1877

<gb> Issue 1877 Unicode code point vs. code point (by aphillips) [pending] [needs-resolution] [s:infra] [whatwg]

<addison> i18n-activity#1878

<gb> Issue 1878 "code points are characters" (by aphillips) [pending] [needs-resolution] [s:infra] [whatwg]

addison: The authors of Infra understand it, but they think they can make things easier for their readers.
… One issue is what code point means. We use it as code point in the current character set, they mean it as Unicode code point.
… They also use it to mean UTF-16 code point.
… We distinguish code point, code units, character,
… Their definition of character is not clear.
… We don't use character unless it is unambiguous.

r12a: ... or unless it is unimportant.

addison: yes

xfq: Not so important to convince them about character styling, but useful to use the definitions.

addison: The Infra authors in general understand and use the terms in the right places, but others may not understand "character" as well.
… They should use the Unicode names for characters. They are standard and wellknown.
… I don't intend to file these as issues. Should I compile them into something, including our present conversation?

JcK: Give some examples of where confusion comes from.

addison: I'll draw all of them into a single issues and then we can review it next week before presentation.

String-Meta Consumer Best Practices

<r12a> https://deploy-preview-87--string-meta.netlify.app/#bp-consumers

r12a: I think the <span> should already be in the "before" code, not in the replacement of the variable.
… We say that in our articles. If you include HTML, you should enclose it in bdi or span.
… But you don't know if the <span> should have dir=rtl or rtl

addison: I assume that somehow comes from the variable.
… I see that I need to reformulate the example.

r12a: The FSI (first strong isolate) is not the right one in this example. You should use RLI.

addison: That's what I do.
… I cancall out that it produces the wrong result for this kind of string.

addison: How about the rest, the requirements? are they correct.

r12a: I have no comments on those.

<addison> https://github.com/w3c/i18n-drafts/pull/591/files

<gb> Pull Request 591 Address comments (by aphillips)

xfq: (I added a preview to the first comment, so you can see it better than with netlify.)

r12a: Best results if you indent the code, and indent the code by the same amount of spaces.

addison: It uses a 2018 style sheet.

r12a: There is a 2022 style, isn't there?
… New styles come with new shapes for the document, so not so easy to just replace everything.

xfq: I think we use 2022 style for the new articles.

r12a: I would be great to be able to point to this article soon.

addison: Yes, I'd like to point to it, too.

r12a: Publish tomorrow, then?

addison: Sure, but I'll check the new style sheet first.

https://www.w3.org/International/i18n-activity/guidelines/editing

r12a: Also compare to an article that uses the latest style and also the latest markup.

xfq: ^^ shows templates

<r12a> w3c/i18n-editors

r12a: Also see i18n-editors repo

<r12a> https://www.w3.org/International/i18n-activity/guidelines/editing#files

AOB?

addison: Next week is 4th of July, US holiday. Meeting or not?

r12a: Gap analysis for Udru scheduled for publishing on Tuesday.

addison: So let's have a meeting next week.

Minutes manually created (not a transcript), formatted by scribe.perl version 221 (Fri Jul 21 14:01:30 2023 UTC).

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No scribenick or scribe found. Guessed: Bert

Maybe present: r12a, xfq

All speakers: addison, JcK, r12a, xfq

Active on IRC: addison, Bert, r12a, xfq