12:01:19 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
12:01:24 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-coga-irc
12:01:25 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:01:26 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
12:01:32 <Lisa> Topic: Mental health subgroup
12:01:52 <Lisa> present+
12:02:27 <Lisa> pushing off this meeting as rashmis laptop is acting up
12:03:57 <rashmi> https://docs.google.com/document/d/19RdKrd2aUJkZcm9FmIOvZ2jfn9JgYpFcqT5mubyQUAQ/edit#heading=h.nidxqwliwmpj
12:04:13 <rashmi> Link for trigger issue paper
12:28:19 <Lisa> style guided: https://docs.google.com/document/d/18rqamyGgYF1DAUHLhsXmR20FtN9AQSaPc9zpFNN1xgM/edit#heading=h.6gnarb5jwvvv
12:28:28 <Lisa> for davids review
12:29:11 <Lisa> and then the group will review on monday, in a week and a half
13:00:25 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
13:00:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-coga-minutes.html Lisa
13:00:37 <Lisa> topic: editors and github
13:06:45 <rashmi> rashmi has joined #coga
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13:29:39 <kirkwood> kirkwood has joined #COGA
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14:01:28 <lisa> topic: editors and github
14:01:39 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
14:01:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-coga-minutes.html lisa
14:53:47 <kirkwood> kirkwood has joined #COGA
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14:59:17 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
14:59:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-coga-minutes.html lisa
14:59:57 <Rain> Rain has joined #coga
15:01:01 <lisa> topic: stucture
15:02:04 <Rain> present+
15:02:06 <lisa> scribe+ Lisa
15:02:15 <kevin> present+
15:02:15 <kirkwood> present+
15:02:45 <Roy> present+
15:02:55 <lisa> Rain: Thanks Roy for the protoypes
15:03:08 <tburtin> tburtin has joined #coga
15:03:18 <tburtin> present+
15:04:09 <lisa> Rain: we want to do  A and B testing , and how much we can meet user needs . Roy hadson did some reserch but we still need more reserch
15:04:55 <lisa> wizard of oz, or protypes ?
15:05:11 <lisa> wizard of oz needs a humen to read the screen
15:05:23 <kevin> q+ to ask for some scene setting
15:05:30 <lisa> ack next
15:05:32 <Zakim> kevin, you wanted to ask for some scene setting
15:05:43 <lisa> keven: thanks etc
15:06:36 <shawn> shawn has joined #coga
15:06:41 <lisa> Kevan: A B werent always exclusive
15:06:57 <shawn> s/Kevan:/Kevin:
15:06:58 <Rain> q+
15:07:01 <lisa> q+
15:07:03 <shawn> present+
15:07:17 <Rain> ack Rain
15:08:24 <lisa> Rain: we might need two diffrent versions, and that can creat confusion but what we want to know is what is most helpful techniques and by how much so we can make good desisions
15:08:33 <lisa> with all information
15:08:55 <kevin> q+ to outline value of two different places and to ask about different audiences
15:08:58 <lisa> niether will be ideilised for what we can produce, but it is for gathering feedback
15:09:02 <lisa> ack next
15:09:11 <Rachael> scribe+
15:11:17 <Rachael> Lisa: Having content in a note form is useful to support larger organizaitons.
15:11:49 <Rachael> ...note would have design guide information.  we did have an interactive mockup for 1.0. The work was cut back on the website.
15:12:12 <Rachael> ...I hope things will get streamlined. That work was fantastic but it shouldn't be the cusp of getting guidance out there.
15:12:39 <Rachael> ...we aren't waiting for WCAG 3. We can publish and then WCAG 3 will come out.  Maybe then we just write issue papers. In the meantime us moving forward is good for people with cognitive disabilities.
15:12:58 <Rachael> q+
15:13:09 <lisa> ack next
15:13:10 <Zakim> kevin, you wanted to outline value of two different places and to ask about different audiences
15:13:24 <Rachael> kevin: I think there's a couple of things in this.
15:13:37 <Rachael> ...the value of the different spaces should be key.
15:13:39 <lisa> (i Can scribe now R)
15:14:10 <lisa> Kevin: 1. diffrent spaces for diffrent uers groups
15:14:29 <lisa> design guide is good as a note
15:15:14 <lisa> for designers and content creaters
15:15:31 <lisa> . 1.b other stuff is uderstanding
15:15:54 <lisa> approuches, how , why
15:16:16 <lisa> q+
15:16:55 <lisa> note: standard and focus. wai space for understanding stuff
15:17:04 <Rain> q+
15:17:41 <lisa> and diffrent audence
15:19:07 <lisa> whithin that are we looking to change styling in TR space
15:19:36 <lisa> ack next
15:20:15 <lisa> rachael: we all agree that the design guide is the focus of next note
15:20:59 <kirkwood> I’m curious as to Rain’s thoughts about Kevin’s understanding
15:21:05 <Rachael> Design guide in TR and User Stories/User Testing/Test objective mapping all agree?
15:21:14 <lisa> Rain agrees
15:21:36 <lisa> ack next
15:21:42 <kirkwood> +1
15:21:50 <Rachael> Everyone agrees that the design guide in TR and User Stories/User Testing/Test objective mapping.
15:22:32 <Rachael> lisa: The breakdown is whether the design guide in TR can have some interactive structure to help people orient themselves.
15:23:16 <Rachael> ...that needs to be with it. You can't jump off to a new document there. The clarifications need to be in the document.
15:24:03 <kevin> q+ to say that changing TR space front matter is not something we can commit to
15:24:10 <Rachael> ...some of it we will struggle in TR space like having the front content collapsable. Maybe we can have something the lawyers would agree to. Theoretically we coudl have collapsible stuff, clearer font, better spacing and images, etc.
15:24:43 <kevin> q+ to ask how much information is actually within each design pattern
15:25:26 <JMcSorley> JMcSorley has joined #coga
15:25:39 <JMcSorley> present+ Jan
15:25:42 <Rachael> ...we will have to have a 2nd conversations. When you say we have control, I know EO is closing down, but it took lots of cycle to get very limited amounts of content into WAI space. Your team has control. We put what we want in a wiki. We want our personas in the WAI personas but then we want the challenges we list integrated into the user personas. That is a bigger conversation but in the meantime we can put content on our wiki.
15:25:50 <lisa> ack next
15:26:19 <lisa> rain: are we talking babout diffrne things?
15:26:34 <lisa> not asking for recomendations now
15:26:53 <lisa> asking to carry on with user testing before we make requests
15:27:18 <lisa> do not want to ask for something without effidence and knowing the extent it is important
15:27:30 <lisa> that takes testing
15:27:54 <shawn> q+
15:28:05 <lisa> then we can come back with real information and have that coversation then
15:28:42 <lisa> this is very complex. making things simple is not easy, and so far we are not doing it as we need to
15:29:00 <lisa> just collecting information
15:29:15 <lisa> q+
15:29:19 <lisa> ack next
15:29:20 <Zakim> kevin, you wanted to say that changing TR space front matter is not something we can commit to and to ask how much information is actually within each design pattern
15:29:56 <lisa> kevins,  and agrees exploring is important
15:30:19 <lisa> but relise that changes to TR will be realy hard, and we dont know we can change it
15:30:33 <Rachael> q+
15:31:25 <lisa> even if we get agreement, unlikely to change retroctivly to existing documents
15:31:47 <Rachael> q+ to say that we had been exploring collapsing content in WCAG 3 successfully to perhaps one off
15:32:01 <lisa> we can look at results for changes to TR space but not sure what we can change]
15:33:04 <shawn> q+ to say past UT TR, EOWG - and future
15:33:33 <lisa> kevin (second point) what goes in a patern might need to change. what is in a patern? can we move section to u nderstanding?
15:34:00 <lisa> ack next
15:34:02 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say past UT TR, EOWG - and future
15:34:23 <lisa> shaw: we did userabilty testing for the TR spaces.
15:34:37 <lisa> results were what you would expect.... daunting
15:34:39 <kevin> s/shaw:/shawn:/
15:34:49 <lisa> tanks Kevin
15:35:10 <lisa> what TR is for and what it is not for.... will try and find it
15:35:37 <lisa> we know how most people react. doesnt meen we can change it
15:36:16 <lisa> also lets look forward . we have a new designer so it hopefuly will be easier
15:36:50 <lisa> and we will become more agile, so it will be easier,
15:37:05 <lisa> so dont worry about the past
15:37:06 <tburtin> q+
15:37:13 <lisa> ack next
15:37:13 <shawn> s/new designer /new content designer
15:38:21 <shawn> s/ also lets look forward / I have a different recollection on some of the work with EOWG. anyway, lets look forward
15:39:24 <shawn> s/ more agile, so it will be easier,/ more agile, and will have different approach
15:39:54 <Rachael> LIsa: Massive amounts of information. We put in a lot of thought and reworked it a lot of times. The idea is short version and then expand it. The "what to do" lost people who weren't technical or who it didn't relate to.
15:40:09 <Rachael> ...a lot of thought in the original and this is an attempt to make it more reasonable.
15:40:14 <lisa> ack next
15:40:15 <Zakim> Rachael, you wanted to say that we had been exploring collapsing content in WCAG 3 successfully to perhaps one off
15:40:28 <tburtin> q-
15:40:32 <Rachael> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/#introduction
15:40:53 <lisa> rachael: it sugests colapsable content is realy important - wcag 3 are doing it too
15:40:56 <lisa> +1
15:40:59 <lisa> q+
15:41:10 <Rain> q+
15:41:16 <lisa> ack r
15:42:00 <lisa> rain: looks like we agree at this moment protypes are not requests. some might not be possibel, gathering information
15:42:21 <lisa> then we need to work with kevin shawn roy and designer to make it viable
15:42:42 <lisa> do we agree?
15:42:44 <lisa> +1
15:43:14 <lisa> rain and can we make some more changes to the protypes and create html protype
15:43:19 <shawn> s/ and designer/ and content designer
15:43:37 <lisa> do we all agree
15:43:38 <kirkwood> link to prototypes?
15:43:41 <lisa> as next steps
15:43:42 <lisa> +1
15:43:46 <shawn> q+
15:44:45 <lisa> ack sh
15:45:23 <lisa> shawn: are you sugesting testing on tr that we cant chage
15:45:34 <lisa> rain: testing content stucture
15:45:40 <lisa> what is most helpful
15:45:44 <kirkwood> https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG2/supplemental/
15:46:04 <lisa> we understand we might not be able to chage tr front mater, but we want to see the impact
15:46:28 <lisa> if frount matter is a huge block at what point do we move people to other version
15:46:34 <lisa> ack lisa
15:47:12 <shawn> q+
15:47:56 <shawn> q+
15:48:43 <lisa> rain: which proposals are worth pushing for
15:49:04 <lisa> need to understand how people experence our work
15:49:09 <lisa> ack next
15:49:47 <kevin> q+ to ask about audience
15:49:49 <lisa> shawn: agrees with guiding people to other formats.
15:50:26 <lisa> use quick refence insteid of wcag. it is the stable refrenceable infor
15:50:39 <lisa> tr is limited usecase
15:50:54 <lisa> everyone should go to recources for use
15:51:08 <lisa> ack next
15:51:09 <Zakim> kevin, you wanted to ask about audience
15:51:38 <lisa> kevin: audence for tr is specific
15:51:49 <lisa> we can provided better resources elsewere
15:51:59 <Rain> q+
15:52:14 <lisa> rain - ca we set next stes#ps
15:52:34 <shawn> s/use quick refence insteid of wcag. it is the stable refrenceable infor/TR is the stable refrenceable info. but not for designerd, developers, etc. we have other resources for them
15:53:09 <lisa> kevin: tr is specific use cases
15:53:21 <lisa> lisa: can we have th e use cases
15:53:49 <lisa> kevin: it is tecnical document eg for browsers vendors for html
15:54:04 <lisa> lisa: so people with a wide range of disabilities
15:54:30 <lisa> q+
15:54:33 <Rachael> q+
15:55:01 <Rachael> q-
15:55:04 <lisa> rain: next steps
15:55:06 <Rachael> +1 to Rain
15:55:25 <lisa> Rain: still want to test content stucture
15:56:05 <lisa> work with roy on the w3c version, that is more specific
15:56:15 <lisa> and lisa and I will make the protype
15:56:18 <kevin> +1 to exploring content structure
15:56:42 <lisa> july: make them strong enough august testing
15:56:48 <lisa> reconect at tpac
15:56:49 <lisa> q?
15:56:53 <lisa> ack next
15:57:04 <lisa> at tpac discuss what we need to do
15:57:11 <lisa> ack tpac
15:57:25 <Rachael> q-
15:57:45 <kevin> q+
15:58:10 <kirkwood> +1 to Rain
15:58:11 <lisa> lisa: we would have both versins for testing
15:58:31 <lisa> kevin: it doesnt perclude testign both
15:58:44 <lisa> we have more flexibilty on the wai site
15:58:53 <lisa> easier then in tr
15:59:34 <lisa> lisa: will roy be able to help with both protypes
16:00:01 <lisa> kevin: dont need to test both
16:00:47 <lisa> rain: we want to test both the more w3c tr style and the idilised version and then decide what we need to put it
16:01:19 <lisa> two protpes, one more idealiserer, and then we discus where to put it
16:01:30 <lisa> kevin : yes, then we explore the testing
16:01:56 <lisa> +1
16:02:01 <Rain> +1
16:02:05 <kirkwood> +1
16:02:05 <Rachael> +1.
16:02:07 <JMcSorley> +1
16:02:10 <tburtin> +1
16:02:20 <Rachael> It would help for someone to write up notes and circulate to ensure we are all on the same page and have it written down
16:02:33 <lisa> ok, I will try
16:02:46 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:02:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-coga-minutes.html lisa
16:02:55 <kevin> For me the final point was not so much to discuss where to put it but to discuss next steps based on the findings from the research
16:03:00 <lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:03:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/27-coga-minutes.html lisa
16:03:41 <lisa> will try and send email out ofver the weekend