16:24:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:24:41 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/20-aria-irc
16:24:41 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:24:42 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:24:48 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:24:48 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:24:49 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240620T130000/
16:24:49 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:24:49 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/4eGMwUD
16:24:49 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/4ctFa4T
16:24:51 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
16:24:54 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:24:56 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Charter https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2022%2F02%2Faria-charter&doc2=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fcharter-drafts%2F2024%2Faria-charter.html
16:25:07 <agendabot> agenda+ -> ARIA should clarify distinction between “contents exposed as descendant text nodes” vs “name from contents” (Was: listitem should include name from Contents or name prohibited) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2160 - need someone to take this on
16:25:07 <agendabot> agenda+ -> td, th naming doesn't align with ARIA https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/543
16:25:07 <agendabot> agenda+ -> notificationId: discussion points https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/1958#discussioncomment-9653301
16:25:51 <jamesn> agenda+ TPAC registration open - https://www.w3.org/2024/09/TPAC/
16:25:59 <jamesn> agenda?
16:26:25 <jamesn> zakim, agenda is 1,2,3,4,9,5,6,7,8
16:26:25 <Zakim> sorry, jamesn, I do not recognize a party named 'agenda'
16:26:32 <jamesn> zakim, agenda order is 1,2,3,4,9,5,6,7,8
16:26:32 <Zakim> ok, jamesn
16:26:41 <jamesn> agenda?
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17:00:49 <Francis_Storr> present+
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17:01:19 <aardrian> present+
17:01:26 <CoryJoseph> Present+
17:02:21 <jamesn> regrets+ Peter
17:02:28 <jamesn> regrets+ Rahim
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17:03:09 <katez> present+
17:03:14 <giacomo-petri> present+
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17:05:00 <aardrian> scribe:aardrian
17:05:04 <BGaraventa> present+ BGaraventa
17:05:10 <aardrian> scribe: aardrian
17:05:14 <Siri> Present +
17:05:19 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:05:19 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/4eGMwUD -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:07:14 <aardrian> jcraig: There are other properties that may relate to this, including `status`.
17:07:24 <aardrian> jcraig: there may be other related issues.
17:07:39 <aardrian> jamesn: Can jcraig look into this?
17:08:00 <aardrian> jcraig: I can look into this.
17:08:44 <aardrian> jcraig: #2256 may have a related issue
17:08:59 <aardrian> jamesn: Should I assign you or agenda next week?
17:09:11 <aardrian> jcraig: Add me in the comments and I'll find the other issue.
17:09:54 <aardrian> jcraig: For context add "starts media" in the note for my searching later?
17:10:49 <aardrian> jamesn: #2254 seems to be answered. Anything more to do other than close it?
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17:11:14 <aardrian> jcraig: The reader may not think it's clear, so perhaps ask where the reader would expect notes like this in the spec?
17:12:05 <aardrian> aardrian: Assign it to me
17:12:17 <aardrian> jamesn: skip 2242
17:12:26 <aardrian> jamesn: Talking 2241 with other editors.
17:12:42 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:12:42 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/4ctFa4T -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:12:43 <OliverH> OliverH has joined #aria
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17:13:29 <aardrian> jamesn: #2245 seems straightforward
17:13:48 <aardrian> sarah: What we talked about last week.
17:13:54 <aardrian> Jamesn: Reviewers?
17:13:57 <aardrian> aardrian: Me
17:14:01 <aardrian> siri: Me
17:14:21 <aardrian> giacomo-petri: me
17:14:24 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:14:24 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:14:35 <sarah> present+
17:14:54 <aardrian> jamesn: nothing new here. Anything you want to talk about jcraig?
17:15:14 <aardrian> jcraig: Good to go. Unless someone else wants to talk about one of them.
17:15:33 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:15:33 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:16:06 <aardrian> jamesn: We have one next week on undefined values / states / properties.
17:16:35 <aardrian> jamesn: The week after is 4 July, so no meeting owing to US holiday. 11 July is next available deep dive date. Any proposals?
17:17:11 <aardrian> jcraig: #2166 implementation concerns over orphaned roles? I'll lead that.
17:17:28 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:17:28 <Zakim> agendum 9 -- TPAC registration open - https://www.w3.org/2024/09/TPAC/ -- taken up [from jamesn]
17:17:46 <aardrian> jamesn: TPAC registration is now open.
17:17:59 <aardrian> jamesn: Monday and Tuesday are the most important days for ARIA.
17:18:11 <aardrian> jamesn" Remainder days are with other working groups, good to participate.
17:18:24 <aardrian> jamesn: Wednesday is the plenary / breakout.
17:18:39 <aardrian> jamesn: Book hotel now if you want the group rate in Anaheim.
17:18:47 <aardrian> jamesn: You want the group rate.
17:18:52 <aardrian> jamesn: Really. You do.
17:19:27 <giacomo-petri> q+
17:19:31 <aardrian> aardrian: Any prep I need to do? Other then be familiar with the work?
17:20:03 <aardrian> jcraig: Wednesday can be interesting for breakout session, which means you can pitch one of your own ideas.
17:20:30 <aardrian> giacomo-petri: Are the other working groups confirmed?
17:20:54 <aardrian> jamesn: It's impossible to not overlap (which was question), but everything is scheduled.
17:21:23 <aardrian> jamesn: Will try to firm up agenda as date approaches to try to avoid other group activity conflicts.
17:21:43 <aardrian> jamesn: This is driven by the WG, not the chairs. So it's up to those who bring the topics.
17:21:58 <jamesn> ack giacomo-petri
17:22:03 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:22:03 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Charter https://services.w3.org/htmldiff?doc1=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2022%2F02%2Faria-charter&doc2=https%3A%2F%2Fw3c.github.io%2Fcharter-drafts%2F2024%2Faria-ch
17:22:06 <Zakim> ... arter.html -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:22:17 <CurtBellew> CurtBellew has joined #aria
17:22:17 <dmontalvo> https://w3c.github.io/charter-drafts/2024/aria-charter.html -> Proposed ARIA Charter
17:22:27 <CurtBellew> present+
17:22:55 <aardrian> jamesn: This is the WG charter. We already have an extension and getting another ... well, go look at it.
17:23:26 <aardrian> jamesn: Lists major deliverables, AccName, ARIA in HTML, ARIA, Core AAM, etc., along with other deliverables.
17:23:42 <aardrian> jamesn: Proposing everything becomes a living standard, without version numbers.
17:24:01 <aardrian> jamesn: If you have feedback, questions, get them in.
17:24:12 <aardrian> jcraig: We should make a play for SVG ARIA for the monorepo.
17:24:16 <aardrian> jamesn: We have.
17:24:27 <aardrian> jcraig: What about CSS AAM?
17:24:48 <aardrian> jamesn: No, the current proposal is to fold it into HTML AAM.
17:25:09 <aardrian> jamesn: One of the reasons Rahim is now an editor of that spec. It's too much for one person otherwise.
17:25:41 <aardrian> daniel-montalvo: We may need to clarify that in Section 5. I am happy to update.
17:26:00 <aardrian> jamesn: We're asking group to review to move forward. Do we need anything formal?
17:26:28 <aardrian> daniel-montalvo: This approach is fine. Maybe a week or so to discuss, but if we agree then the minutes will suffice.
17:26:37 <aardrian> daniel-montalvo: Or we can come back.
17:26:58 <aardrian> jamesn: Email the chairs if there is anything you need changed. Or a mailing list discussion. Or open an issue.
17:27:04 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:27:04 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> ARIA should clarify distinction between “contents exposed as descendant text nodes” vs “name from contents” (Was: listitem should include name from Contents
17:27:07 <Zakim> ... or name prohibited) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2160 - need someone to take this on -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:27:42 <aardrian> jamesn: We need someone to take this.
17:27:56 <aardrian> jamesn: Ran out of time talking about this last week. Agreement that we want to do it but nobody stepped up.
17:28:25 <aardrian> aardrian: Seems to make sense.
17:28:50 <aardrian> jcraig: Yeah, it seemed we only needed a volunteer to at least fix list item. There may be more.
17:29:02 <aardrian> jamesn: Why would this be an HTML editors issue?
17:29:24 <aardrian> jcraig: Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought it had items that aligned with HTML AAM.
17:29:33 <aardrian> jamesn: Anyone want to volunteer?
17:29:37 <aardrian> jcraig: IF you
17:29:57 <aardrian> jcraig: If you're unsure about volunteering, happy to spend some one-on-one time with you.
17:30:08 <aardrian> jamesn: Seems like a good "medium" issue.
17:30:16 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:30:16 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> td, th naming doesn't align with ARIA https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/543 -- taken up [from agendabot]
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17:30:57 <aardrian> jamesn: I thought this was linked to previous issue, not sure anymore.
17:31:37 <aardrian> jamesn: Scott raised it. ARIA says name comes from contents, HTML AAM does not say that. Also a case to allow name from author.
17:32:02 <jamesn> q+
17:32:13 <aardrian> sarah: I agree with Scott for table, less so for table.
17:32:51 <aardrian> sarah: Column header is the same role across both, so there is a case in a grid once you have extra controls in the cell.
17:33:01 <aardrian> sarah: More about overrides than adding more.
17:33:17 <jamesn> ack me
17:33:19 <aardrian> sarah: There isn't a good definition of whether name from author should override or augment.
17:33:35 <aardrian> jamesn: I'm confused what a name means for a cell in a table. What is it?
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17:34:04 <sarah> q+
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17:34:06 <aardrian> jamesn: A cell can have headers, which is not really the name. I've never really understood why you'd name a cell in a table.
17:34:47 <aardrian> sarah: Another thing poorly defined -- when on cells you don't want the column / row header name to also include the names of all the actions embedded within it.
17:34:56 <sarah> ack me
17:34:58 <aardrian> sarah: There is no spec for how to handle for that.
17:35:20 <aardrian> jamesn: We need to have all the use cases laid out and satisfy those than try to sort one issue at a time.
17:35:33 <aardrian> jamesn: We won't get all the use cases this way.
17:35:49 <aardrian> jamesn: Grids are on my wishlist forever but have never gotten 'round to doing it.
17:35:55 <aardrian> Q+
17:36:03 <jamesn> ack aardrian
17:37:30 <aardrian> aardrian: There are already bad patterns where authors override cells _and_ headers, so my concern is do we forbid or reflect?
17:37:40 <aardrian> jamesn: Is there a good solution to this?
17:37:58 <aardrian> aardrian: er... nope
17:38:09 <sarah> Narrator voice: `abbr` does *not* work 😅
17:38:22 <siri> Q+
17:38:58 <aardrian> jamesn: Think about `<abbr>` as a solution.
17:39:00 <aardrian> Q-
17:39:00 <jamesn> ack siri
17:39:26 <aardrian> siri: What are we trying to do here?
17:40:19 <aardrian> siri: How do we approach this?
17:40:39 <aardrian> aardrian: Mostly trying to sort the issue at hand without creating more problems.
17:41:10 <aardrian> jamesn: We may need a deep dive. Perhaps an actionable proposal prior to TPAC.
17:41:26 <aardrian> jamesn: Then we can focus on it. Can someone propose this and work out a plan?
17:41:33 <aardrian> aardrian: I can collaborate but not lead.
17:41:40 <aardrian> zakim, next item
17:41:40 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- -> notificationId: discussion points https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/1958#discussioncomment-9653301 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:42:18 <aardrian> jamesn: We had a conversation a couple weeks ago and comments for which we have been asking for feedback.
17:42:26 <aardrian> jamesn: Here is the notificationID.
17:42:46 <aardrian> Q+
17:42:47 <sarah> q+
17:42:57 <aardrian> jamesn: Would anyone like to leave comments now?
17:43:08 <aardrian> jamesn: Otherwise leave comments there.
17:43:10 <jamesn> ack aardrian
17:43:48 <aardrian> aardrian: I had comments but no responses.
17:44:27 <aardrian> jamesn: Can you split it and put it into the specific discussions?
17:44:40 <aardrian> aardrian (grumpily): Yes.
17:44:58 <aardrian> Q-
17:45:19 <jamesn> ack sarah
17:45:29 <jamesn> agenda?
17:45:46 <aardrian> sarah: Would it be helpful to summarize in the meeting what notificationID is? Or is this procedural?
17:45:56 <aardrian> jamesn: I would hope people know about it by now.
17:46:34 <aardrian> sarah: A lot of the Microsoft discussions have been about the dev talking to the SR vendor to create a custom script for their custom notificationID token.
17:46:49 <jamesn> q+ to say that it doesn't really sound scalable
17:47:06 <aardrian> sarah: This is doable within Microsoft owing to Narrator and Edge. But I want more feedback outside Microsoft for how it could be used.
17:47:13 <aardrian> Q+
17:47:38 <jamesn> ack me
17:47:38 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to say that it doesn't really sound scalable
17:47:38 <sarah> ack me
17:47:39 <aardrian> sarah: Is there anything people need to feel they can give feedback? I will forward it along. In this call or otherwise.
17:47:57 <aardrian> jamesn: That was how I thought it was working but it doesn't seem scalable for most devs.
17:48:21 <aardrian> jamesn: I assumed it was a registry of common idioms and it works from those.
17:48:39 <sarah> q+
17:48:51 <aardrian> jamesn: I imagine it might work, if implemented today, that devs will simply use the same items that Microsoft does.
17:49:23 <aardrian> sarah: It's very hard to look at what others do, so you would need to listen to the AAPI event directly and inspect the properties being passed.
17:49:34 <aardrian> jamesn: But you can do it!
17:49:41 <aardrian> Sarah: Sure.
17:49:44 <jamesn> ack aardrian
17:49:44 <sarah> ack me
17:50:37 <aardrian> aardrian: I thought this was a token list from my review of the deep dive.
17:50:38 <jamesn> jamesn nods in violent agreement with aardrian
17:50:47 <aardrian> I want a token list for earcons or whatever.
17:50:56 <jamesn> q?
17:51:00 <jamesn> agenda?
17:51:02 <CoryJoseph> Q+
17:51:07 <jamesn> ack CoryJoseph
17:51:10 <aardrian> aardrian: It seems unlikely that devs could inspect a highly specific implementation.
17:51:39 <aardrian> coryjoseph: From the perspective of having the resources to use this to its full potential is critical.
17:52:18 <aardrian> coryjoseph: I can see this in use for health care advisors to qualify the different kinds of notifications.
17:52:51 <aardrian> coryjoseph: But even in a company as large as mine is a lift, complicated by getting all the vendors to agree to the implementations.
17:53:02 <aardrian> aardrian: And then getting SR vendors to sign on.
17:53:23 <aardrian> jamesn: This feels like a solution only viable for MIcrosoft, Google, et al.
17:53:24 <jamesn> q?
17:53:52 <aardrian> jamesn: We have folks here with opinions who need to put them into the discussions.
17:54:10 <aardrian> sarah: I provided my contact info for anyone who wants to ask questions outside the call.
17:54:42 <aardrian> jamesn: If you don't have access to the Zoom chat, say so and ... actually, get the email from the group contact page.
17:55:04 <aardrian> zakim, end meeting
17:55:04 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Francis_Storr, aardrian, CoryJoseph, katez, giacomo-petri, BGaraventa, sarah, CurtBellew
17:55:06 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:55:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/20-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:55:15 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, aardrian; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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