IRC log of i18n on 2024-06-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:48:18 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
13:48:22 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-i18n-irc
13:49:00 [addison]
Meeting: I18N ⇔ CSS
13:49:07 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/a1f2b55d-d2c7-40a1-a3e7-4c5eb70aa55e/20240618T070000/
13:49:07 [agendabot]
clear agenda
13:49:07 [agendabot]
agenda+ Agenda
13:49:07 [agendabot]
agenda+ Action Items
13:49:09 [agendabot]
agenda+ Info Share and Progress Reports
13:49:11 [agendabot]
agenda+ Reorganization of LREQ documents
13:49:14 [agendabot]
agenda+ Emphasis Skip
13:49:16 [agendabot]
agenda+ Review on-going issues
13:49:23 [addison]
agenda+ AOB?
13:49:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
13:49:40 [addison]
Chair: Addison Phillips
14:00:24 [addison]
addison has joined #i18n
14:00:44 [addison]
present+ Addison
14:02:41 [fantasai]
fantasai has joined #i18n
14:02:52 [fantasai]
present+
14:04:26 [addison]
addison has joined #i18n
14:05:01 [addison]
agenda?
14:05:24 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 1
14:05:24 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Agenda -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:05:52 [addison]
agenda+ CSS#10363
14:05:52 [gb]
Issue 10363 not found
14:06:25 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 2
14:06:25 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:06:36 [gb]
Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #99, #68, #35, #16, #11
14:06:41 [addison]
#99
14:06:41 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/99 -> Action 99 ping unicode about emphasis skip property (see our #530) (on aphillips) due 2024-05-28
14:07:01 [addison]
close #99
14:07:02 [gb]
Closed -> issue #99 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/99
14:07:06 [addison]
#68
14:07:06 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/68 -> Action 68 follow up with florian about testing with kindle (on aphillips) due 2024-01-25
14:07:27 [addison]
close #68
14:07:27 [addison]
#35
14:07:28 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/35 -> Action 35 review quote character edits of CSS #5478 with CSS (on fantasai) due 2023-08-30
14:07:28 [gb]
Closed -> issue #68 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/68
14:08:12 [addison]
florin: did discuss with css, good solution but hasn't been edited in
14:08:41 [addison]
... are we clear that for 'q' we want parent language. for elements not-'q', is going off the parent correct??
14:09:28 [addison]
... if you e.g. added open/close quote on say blockquote
14:09:39 [addison]
fantasai: pull quotes are more common like that
14:09:51 [addison]
florian: if we never work off element but always off parent
14:11:10 [addison]
forian: think it might be "it depends"
14:11:24 [addison]
addison: only quotes?
14:11:54 [addison]
action: florian: write an issue about quote auto behavior for non-q elements
14:12:03 [gb]
Created -> action #107 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/107
14:12:18 [addison]
close #35
14:12:19 [gb]
Closed -> issue #35 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/35
14:12:23 [addison]
#16
14:12:24 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/16 -> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips) due 1 Jan 2024
14:12:28 [r12a]
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14:12:37 [addison]
#11
14:12:38 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/11 -> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal) due 18 Jul 2023
14:13:05 [addison]
agenda?
14:13:05 [gb]
Issue 10363 not found
14:13:08 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 3
14:13:09 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Info Share and Progress Reports -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:13:34 [addison]
florian: wg that hosts ruby expires and was extended so we can keep working
14:13:57 [addison]
addison: we have folks working on a review
14:14:13 [addison]
florian: did file HR review requests
14:14:48 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 4
14:14:48 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- Reorganization of LREQ documents -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:15:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:15:14 [addison]
present+ Richard
14:15:14 [r12a]
https://www.w3.org/TR/laoo-gap/
14:15:25 [r12a]
https://www.w3.org/TR/laoo-lreq/
14:15:51 [addison]
richard: just a heads up, just published 3 more of these, kashmiri, uighur, urdu
14:16:06 [addison]
... a lot of these didn't exist before, some did exist but were manipulated
14:16:12 [addison]
... couple things going on
14:16:21 [addison]
... structure of the docs now follows a particular order
14:16:41 [addison]
... the headers and order is the same across all of them; follows my personal work on orthography
14:17:00 [addison]
... mostly list of links; some don't go anywhere useful
14:17:16 [addison]
... standard categories for the links; close to the language enablement index we used to have
14:17:31 [addison]
... that was not very helpful if you were working on a particular language/ortho
14:17:41 [addison]
... many sections like to stuff in my orthography notes
14:17:52 [florian]
q+
14:17:59 [addison]
... was considering copying my stuff into these docs
14:18:05 [addison]
... linked instead.
14:18:29 [addison]
richard: some of these docs are just links at the moment, but if someone decides to write stuff they can
14:18:36 [r12a]
https://www.w3.org/TR/alreq/
14:18:38 [addison]
... if you look at alreq stuff
14:18:53 [addison]
... already had loads of stuff. repurposed
14:19:09 [addison]
... at beginning of sections
14:19:23 [addison]
richard: I'm finding it very helpful
14:19:26 [addison]
ack next
14:19:35 [addison]
florian: two pieces of feedback
14:19:47 [addison]
... inlining vs. not. this makes sense for editing
14:20:19 [addison]
... for reading, probably fine. if just looking for info. small feedback, not a strong opinion
14:20:32 [addison]
... important that info be backed up by w3c systems
14:20:58 [addison]
richard: interesting idea; had other things ahead in priorities
14:21:08 [addison]
... in terms of overview
14:21:21 [addison]
... each one contains the script overview, mainly taken from my stuff
14:21:42 [addison]
... also still ave laanguage enablement index
14:23:40 [addison]
richard: didn't include all that stuff for (reasons); some IP concerns
14:24:02 [addison]
ack next
14:24:24 [addison]
fantasai: plan is to put all content in your docs?
14:24:52 [addison]
richard: no, what we are doing is pointing to my existing content rather than copying in and maintaining in two places
14:25:25 [addison]
fantasai: is the plan to maintain in your docs?
14:31:40 [xfq]
present+
14:32:14 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:32:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-i18n-minutes.html xfq
14:34:14 [addison]
agenda?
14:34:16 [gb]
Issue 10363 not found
14:36:43 [xfq]
present+ atsushi
14:36:52 [xfq]
present+ florian
14:36:58 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:36:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-i18n-minutes.html xfq
14:37:30 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 8
14:37:30 [Zakim]
agendum 8 -- CSS#10363 -- taken up [from addison]
14:37:58 [addison]
csswg-drafts#10363
14:37:58 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10363 -> Issue 10363 [css-text-3][css-text-4] Japanese small kana and `line-break: normal` (by fantasai) [css-text-3] [css-text-4] [Agenda+] [i18n-tracker] [i18n-jlreq] [Agenda+ i18n]
14:38:18 [addison]
fantasai: was looking into webkit line breaking
14:38:23 [addison]
... was inconsistent
14:38:37 [addison]
... in strict, can't wrap before small kana but can in loose
14:39:01 [addison]
... this is unexpected from some japanese users, FF is already shipping
14:39:07 [addison]
... should we just change the default?
14:39:25 [addison]
florian: in issue called this "proposal B"
14:39:34 [addison]
... currently not "up to you", you're supposed to break
14:39:44 [addison]
florian: would support either A or B but prefer B
14:40:50 [fantasai]
https://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/#characters_not_starting_a_line
14:41:15 [addison]
atsushi: in jlreq
14:41:38 [addison]
florian: 3.1.7 in jlreq mentions small kana (in princple no line should start...)
14:41:48 [xfq]
In principle, no line should begin with [...] small kana (cl-11)
14:41:51 [addison]
atsushi: need to go back to jlreq folks
14:42:18 [addison]
florian: please be clear we are only discussing *default* behavior, can still allow
14:42:32 [addison]
fantasai: currently 50/50 in terms of implementation
14:43:28 [addison]
action: atsushi: talk to jlreq about *default* behavior of line breaking with small kana (cf. csswg-drafts#10363)
14:43:28 [gb]
Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe atsushi is not a valid user for w3c/i18n-actions?
14:43:44 [addison]
action: himoren: talk to jlreq about *default* behavior of line breaking with small kana (cf. csswg-drafts#10363)
14:43:45 [gb]
Cannot create action. Validation failed. Maybe himoren is not a valid user for w3c/i18n-actions?
14:43:51 [addison]
gb, atsushi is himoren
14:43:51 [gb]
addison, OK.
14:44:30 [addison]
action: himorin: talk to jlreq about *default* behavior of line breaking with small kana (cf. csswg-drafts#10363)
14:44:31 [gb]
Created -> action #108 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/108
14:44:38 [addison]
gb, atsushi is himorin
14:44:38 [gb]
addison, OK.
14:44:56 [r12a]
#108 note https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/10363
14:44:57 [gb]
Added -> comment https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/108#issuecomment-2176285763
14:45:20 [r12a]
#108 note https://www.w3.org/TR/css-text-3/#line-break-property
14:45:21 [gb]
Added -> comment https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/108#issuecomment-2176286889
14:45:33 [r12a]
#108 note https://www.w3.org/TR/jlreq/#characters_not_starting_a_line
14:45:34 [gb]
Added -> comment https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/108#issuecomment-2176287394
14:48:46 [addison]
addison has joined #i18n
14:49:55 [addison]
agenda?
14:49:58 [gb]
Issue 10363 not found
14:50:29 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 5
14:50:29 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Emphasis Skip -- taken up [from agendabot]
14:51:22 [xfq]
addison: the issue about the code points emphasis marks should skip
14:51:25 [xfq]
scribe+
14:51:35 [xfq]
... about maintaining the list in Unicode
14:51:46 [xfq]
... we can't change General_Category
14:51:57 [xfq]
... but maybe we could add a property
14:52:15 [xfq]
... there are differences between punctuation and symbol
14:52:29 [xfq]
... that occured in Unicode many years ago
14:52:36 [xfq]
... maybe there's a path forward about it
14:52:44 [xfq]
florian: I don't know
14:52:59 [xfq]
... I'm not excessively concerned about trying to write an initial version of it
14:53:42 [xfq]
... if we create a base set to start from there, I think we can help with that
14:53:57 [xfq]
... but the whole point to have Unicode maintain it is that they can maintain it
14:54:35 [xfq]
addison: it might be more visible in the Unicode space if they were maintaining it
14:54:52 [xfq]
... other text applications that we don't know about would come along
14:54:57 [xfq]
florian: absolutely
14:55:05 [xfq]
... in principle, it's generic
14:55:20 [xfq]
... if we're more specific than we should be, I don't think it's intentional
14:55:24 [xfq]
addison: OK
14:56:12 [xfq]
florian: the ability to switch on and off and make exceptions and tweak it in one way or another, that's on us
14:56:34 [xfq]
... but the basis about what isit supposed to apply to ought to be generic
14:56:39 [xfq]
addison: I agree
14:57:18 [xfq]
s/isit/is it
14:57:43 [xfq]
florian: I have a very small update
14:57:59 [xfq]
... about CSS text-wrap: balance
14:58:12 [xfq]
... Chrome had not implmented yet
14:58:15 [xfq]
... I did reach out
14:58:20 [xfq]
... they say it's scheduled
14:58:35 [xfq]
... they're gonna try and fix it somewhere in autumn
14:59:12 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:00:08 [xfq]
florian: in the future if there's any long living property that you want to suggest should be split into a bunch of longhands and become a shorthand
15:00:13 [xfq]
... this is not always trivial
15:00:23 [xfq]
... for object model reasons
15:00:35 [xfq]
... the WG is trying to find general solutions to that problem
15:00:46 [xfq]
... whether we will succeed remains to be seen
15:00:53 [xfq]
... it's a case by case problem at the moment
15:02:19 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:02:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-i18n-minutes.html xfq
15:02:38 [addison]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:38 [Zakim]
Present: Addison, fantasai, Richard, xfq, atsushi, florian
15:02:39 [Zakim]
On IRC I see addison, r12a, fantasai, RRSAgent, Zakim, atsushi, alastairc, Rachael, hsivonen, florian, agendabot, Bert, csarven, astearns, koji, eemeli, gb, xfq, Mek, hadleybeeman,
15:02:39 [Zakim]
... cwilso
15:02:43 [addison]
zakim, bye
15:02:43 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been Addison, fantasai, Richard, xfq, atsushi, florian
15:02:43 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #i18n
15:02:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-i18n-minutes.html addison