18:06:14 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:06:18 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-aria-apg-irc 18:06:21 rrsagent, make log public 18:06:28 Zakim, start the meeting 18:06:28 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:06:29 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:06:33 present+ jugglinmike 18:06:39 present+ howard-e 18:07:03 present+ dmontalvo 18:07:06 present+ siri 18:07:11 present+ arigilmroe 18:07:22 present+ CoryJoseph 18:07:42 present+ Bryan_Garaventa 18:08:19 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:08:26 present+ CurtBellew 18:08:48 present+ Matt_King 18:09:37 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:09:42 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force Weekly Teleconference 18:09:45 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:09:58 topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:10:12 Matt_King: Next meeting: June 18 18:10:21 Matt_King: No meeting July 9 18:10:28 Matt_King: Any requests for change to agenda? 18:10:53 Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll use the agenda as scheduled 18:11:08 present+ jongund 18:11:09 s/June 18/June 25/ 18:11:30 Topic: Publication planning 18:11:47 Matt_King: Publication milestone: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/milestone/32#js-repo-pjax-container 18:11:54 Matt_King: It has four items 18:12:12 Matt_King: The first is related to keyboard markup. It's slipped twice, but I still intend to do it 18:12:30 Matt_King: The second is the coverage and quality report. We're waiting on some updates from John in response to howard-e 18:12:54 Matt_King: Third is adding a practices page for high contrast 18:13:35 Matt_King: Fourth is support for experimental example pages (issue number 2977) 18:13:45 Matt_King: I'm optimistic about at least two of these 18:14:05 Matt_King: issue number 3025 should also be added to this milestone. I'm going to do that, now 18:14:20 Matt_King: It is currently waiting on a review from Jem 18:15:39 siri: I can help reviewing, too 18:15:55 Matt_King: Thank you! I've added you as a reviewer, too 18:16:16 https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3025 18:16:49 Matt_King: It looks like we're on a pretty solid path for at least three of these things 18:16:59 Matt_King: The other two depend on me 18:17:18 Topic: HTML source formatting on combobox example page 18:17:46 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/3027 18:18:02 arigilmroe: Has submitted a patch for this, which is awesome: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3041/files 18:18:35 s/arigilmroe: Has/Matt_King: arigilmroe has/ 18:19:23 arigilmroe: I added a "trim" to remove surrounding white-space just in that example 18:20:01 Matt_King: If you press the "open this in CodePen" button and copy it from CodePen, would it work without this change? 18:20:58 Matt_King: I ask because it almost seems to me like we're adding code to support something we wouldn't normally support 18:21:10 arigilmroe: The CodePen works 18:21:52 Matt_King: I'm questioning whether we want to do this at all. This bug could pop up on many example pages, and I don't know if we want to be responsible for supporting this use-case everywhere 18:23:02 Matt_King: The way the HTML is formatted for display on the example page, there is some whitespace around the list items 18:23:32 Matt_King: However, if you look at that exact HTML in CodePen, that whitespace isn't there. That's because that whitespace isn't present in the source 18:23:58 Matt_King: But our intention isn't that you would copy and paste that HTML in order to re-create the example 18:24:33 Matt_King: I think that if we were to try to copy-and-paste the HTML from the other pages, we would probably find many other places where white-space was causing issues 18:24:50 arigilmroe: Do we even need the HTML source section? 18:26:25 Matt_King: A few people (including myself but others, as well) have reported that the "source" section is useful. One could review the source through CodePen, but doing so can be difficult for an AT user. 18:27:12 jongund: Have we opened any feature requests in CodePen to make it easier to navigate with an AT? 18:27:17 Matt_King: We have not 18:27:38 Matt_King: I just double-checked, and JAWS is still completely silent on the CodePen page 18:28:14 Matt_King: I can press Ctrl+A to select all the text, copy it, paste it into Nodepad, and then review it from there 18:28:49 Matt_King: It's a kind of workaround that I'm used to doing, but I'm not sure how many other screen reader users would think to do that 18:29:38 Matt_King: I suppose we can remove the HTML source, though. We might want to remove the CSS and JavaScript source, for similar reasons 18:29:57 dmontalvo: I appreciate having the source on the same page 18:31:37 CoryJoseph: CodePen is run by a small company. The accessibility issues were reported years ago, but as far as I know, they haven't committed to a timeline to address those 18:32:14 Matt_King: Even a simple change like adding a landmark region around the code would be a massive help... 18:32:48 CurtBellew: We could put a landmark region around our embedding of CodePen 18:32:53 Matt_King: That's a good idea! 18:33:55 Bryan_Garaventa: If we added the landmark for CodePen, then I'd be comfortable removing the source from the example pages 18:34:57 Matt_King: Doing that would eliminate some scripting (the build script that generates the view of the source code), it would make the pages lighter, it would remove a redundancy, and it would prevent the kind of confusion experienced by the reporter of the issue we're currently discussing 18:35:45 dmontalvo: I still believe there's utility in surfacing the source code on the page. Particularly for screen reader users who are not familiar with CodePen (who may not even realize that they could access the source code through CodePen) 18:36:05 dmontalvo: Is our audience for this limited to developers? 18:36:11 Matt_King: No, I don't think so 18:37:02 Matt_King: I wonder if we put the CodePen button in two places. Where it is, currently, and then also in the "source" section with some instructions like, "if you'd like to copy the source code, you can access it on CodePen" 18:37:39 s/in the "source" section"/under the "HTML source" heading/ 18:38:41 Bryan_Garaventa: Personally, I find CodePen irritating, but to each his own 18:39:31 Matt_King: arigilmroe you can experiment with this change on just the page we're discussing. That will give us something to review and decide if we want to do it generally 18:39:36 arigilmroe: Sounds good! 18:39:43 Topic: New high contrast practice page 18:39:50 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/2991 18:40:09 jongund: In the table, under the "sample color" column, I added colors which are computed based on HTML standard color names 18:40:39 jongund: If it doesn't match a known color, it will tell you which color it is closest to 18:42:12 can you add link to system colors here? 18:43:08 jongund: This is all computed because the colors are different for each browser 18:43:54 https://deploy-preview-315--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/practices/high-contrast/ 18:44:20 Matt_King: I think the "sample" column--it might be cool to label that "computed sample" or something like that, just to indicate that this is computed specifically for the current browser 18:45:43 jongund: It also detects grayscale. If all of the RGB values are the same, it will report "light gray", "gray", or "dark gray" 18:45:53 jongund: I also tried to work on testing for high-contrast support 18:46:13 jongund: Mostly what I have there is links to instructions for testing high-contrast settings 18:46:49 jongund: For the Chrome browser, I have a link for how to configure the DOM inspector (where you can add a "render" tab to one of the toolbars and use that to force certain colors) 18:47:24 jongund: I'm still working on this section, so it's not very well-organized, yet 18:51:28 Matt_King: It will be helpful to understand which ways of coding must be used in order to support high-contrast 18:52:54 jongund: I was thinking about using a button that's made from an image, a button that's made with a "

" whose "role" is "button", and then a button made from an SVG... 18:53:17 Matt_King: Anyone care to weigh in on what would be useful for them? 18:53:42 CurtBellew: I'd have to think about this a bit; I don't know off-hand 18:53:46 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:54:11 arigilmroe: I need to take a closer look 18:54:23 s/arigilmroe/arigilmore/g 18:55:14 Matt_King: We avoid anti-patterns, but in a case like this, maybe we could have a "do's and don't's" kind of section 18:55:54 jongund: When you're using current color, you can't necessarily set the background color. It's not like the "force colors" media query where you can set whatever you want 18:56:24 jongund: If you're not careful, and the background color changes to the current color, you could end up with black-on-black. Clearly, you won't see anything in that case 18:56:41 jongund: There are also considerations around images 18:57:30 Matt_King: Well those are two cautions right there. We could use different wording, like "recommendations" and "cautions" instead of "do's and don't's" 18:58:23 Matt_King: I'm super-excited about getting all this information together in once place. It feels like it could be extremely valuable 18:58:45 Matt_King: It would be great if the other folks in attendance could give jongund feedback about what's good and/or what's missing 18:59:56 Matt_King: If anyone knows someone who might have advice, you can share a link to the preview https://deploy-preview-315--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/practices/high-contrast/ 19:00:10 And they can add comments to jongund's pull request 19:00:52 CurtBellew: I think high-contrast testing is under-served with accessibility testing. I agree that there's potentially a lot of value here 19:01:14 jongund: I'll try to work on this more today and tomorrow. I may not be present on the call next Tuesday; I'll be camping 19:01:27 Matt_King: Thank you for all the really awesome hard work on this, jongund 19:03:15 Zakim, end the meeting 19:03:15 As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, howard-e, dmontalvo, siri, arigilmroe, CoryJoseph, Bryan_Garaventa, CurtBellew, Matt_King, jongund 19:03:18 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:03:20 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 19:03:27 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:03:27 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:03:29 RRSAgent, leave 19:03:29 I see no action items