13:57:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #adapt
13:58:03 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-irc
13:58:03 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:58:04 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), janina
13:58:17 <janina> Meeting: WAI-Adapt Teleconference
13:58:23 <janina> Date 18 Jun 2024
13:58:28 <janina> Chair: Lionel
14:02:14 <Russell> Russell has joined #adapt
14:02:28 <Russell> present+
14:02:37 <Abhinav> Abhinav has joined #adapt
14:03:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger has joined #adapt
14:03:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ Introductions. Updates.
14:03:57 <janina> present+
14:03:57 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ Issue 240 Finalizations
14:04:04 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ Symbols explainer
14:04:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> agenda+ Well known destinations
14:05:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> present+
14:05:30 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, who is here?
14:05:30 <Zakim> Present: Russell, janina, Lionel_Wolberger
14:05:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see Lionel_Wolberger, Abhinav, Russell, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, Roy, gb, dmontalvo
14:05:45 <Abhinav> present+
14:06:25 <Lionel_Wolberger> scribe+
14:06:30 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:06:30 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Introductions. Updates. -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
14:06:56 <matatk> matatk has joined #adapt
14:07:33 <janina> scribe+
14:08:30 <matatk> q+
14:08:30 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Reviews COGA participation
14:08:36 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:08:36 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Lionel_Wolberger
14:09:01 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: We met with COGA but did not have time to discuss symbols. They invited us for a return visit to discuss same.
14:10:12 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Suggests check for open items?
14:10:53 <janina> Russell:  Issue 240 conversation continues
14:11:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel: Link, https://github.com/w3c/adapt/issues/240
14:11:26 <janina> matatk: We believe we've addressed WHAT concerns by our post
14:11:36 <janina> matatk: We're waiting for their response
14:11:47 <janina> s/waiting for/awaiting/
14:12:03 <janina> matatk: How long do we give them?
14:12:15 <janina> matatk: It's summertime, it could be weeks!
14:12:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> . need to provide agenda to TPAC
14:12:56 <Lionel_Wolberger> rrsagent, make minutes
14:12:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-minutes.html Lionel_Wolberger
14:13:05 <janina> matatk: Gentle nudging might be providing details for our TPAC agenda which symbols will certainly be agendad
14:13:42 <janina> matatk: On the side we should read COGA doc for any design showstoppers
14:14:10 <janina> Russell: Had very positive Unicode meeting; good support for getting Bliss in asap
14:14:41 <janina> Russell: Notes unicode is volunteer maintained
14:15:17 <janina> Russell: So we're somewhat detained by maintainer availability
14:15:51 <janina> Russell: Registry we're part of was not maintained, so a bit of extra work
14:16:49 <janina> Russell: Wouldn't expect asking unicode to maintain would be suboptimal
14:17:01 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: we're interested in normative and scalable
14:17:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... this emoji registry is likely not sufficiently normative for our use
14:18:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: The user agent will likely rely on unicode values, but the registry will likely be W3C hosted as we have been planning
14:18:24 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... and will better support authoring as a result
14:21:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:21:59 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Lionel_Wolberger
14:22:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> ack matatk
14:22:04 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:22:04 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Issue 240 Finalizations -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
14:22:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, close this item
14:22:16 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
14:22:17 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:22:17 <Zakim> 3. Symbols explainer [from Lionel_Wolberger]
14:22:19 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:22:19 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Symbols explainer -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
14:23:28 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: symbols are variously called AAC symbols, glyphs, pictograms, emojis, icons, emoticons, logograms, ideograms
14:23:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Icons: Looking at the bottom of this GMail I see a tiny paperclip and a padlock. These are icons, simplified drawings meant to represent functions like attaching a file or securing data. Click them, and they do their job. In the screen reader they receive whatever label was assigned by the Google team.
14:24:16 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
14:24:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-minutes.html matatk
14:24:24 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... emojis are supported in all chat and documents
14:24:33 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... AAC Symbols (ARASAAC): In hospitals and therapeutic settings, you’ll find symbol boards with small cartoons. These are used for communication, where users touch a square to express needs or thoughts. All hospitals offer a drawing of a cup of water, meant to indicate thirst--but the drawing is different in each locale.
14:24:50 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Wingdings and Unicode: Unicode and ASCII are character sets for computer displays, including everything from letters and numbers to scissors and bells.
14:25:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Bliss Symbolics: An entire language of non-alphanumeric glyphs curated by an international community. These symbols can convey complex messages
14:25:47 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... one member of the community was translating the Bible into Bliss Symbolics
14:26:14 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Our work in dealing with symbols has been challenging, here are some of the reasons
14:27:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> Russell: Some symbols are not intended to be tiny
14:27:24 <janina> only some?
14:28:04 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: No Universal Term: We haven’t agreed on a single word for these things.
14:28:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Lack of Universal Semantics: What means something in one context might be meaningless or confusing in another.
14:28:51 <janina> q+
14:29:45 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Audience Confusion: Try explaining the potential benefits of universal semantics for these symbols, without these general terms
14:29:59 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... Our goal is to create specifications for content authors to add semantic metadata to symbols.
14:30:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... or encode the symbols with semantic metadata
14:31:32 <Lionel_Wolberger> Russell: Add 'logogram' to the list of potential terms
14:31:48 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: We do need a good taxonomical structure, and words that communicate well
14:32:03 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we think this will make a big splash so we need good words
14:32:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... but it may be very hard to pin it down
14:32:28 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
14:32:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-minutes.html matatk
14:32:37 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I think hieroglyphs should work, would like to explore why it does not
14:32:49 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... I don't think we are 'adding semantic' data
14:33:39 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we are seeking to embed lexical meaning into web content, as that is what happens when you transform ARASAAC to another symbol set
14:34:19 <Lionel_Wolberger> Russell: We are trying to come up with a word that covers all these different terms, of things that serve different purposes and are different subsets
14:34:58 <Lionel_Wolberger> janina: Lexical meaning is the meaning that the dictionary conveys
14:36:24 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
14:36:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-minutes.html matatk
14:36:31 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:36:31 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Lionel_Wolberger
14:36:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> q?
14:36:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> ack janina
14:36:43 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, next item
14:36:43 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Well known destinations -- taken up [from Lionel_Wolberger]
14:36:49 <Russell> present-
14:37:06 <Lionel_Wolberger> Topic: Discussing WKD with Coga
14:37:06 <matatk> present+ Russell
14:37:06 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
14:37:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-minutes.html matatk
14:37:17 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: They didn't not like it!
14:37:21 <janina> matatk: They did like it!
14:37:30 <janina> matatk: Have notes from call ...\
14:37:52 <janina> matatk: Caught 5 specific questions/comments/interventions
14:38:49 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: COGA excited to have systematic access to WKD: Very concerned for help and support; now in WCAG 2.2
14:38:50 <matatk> s/Coga/COGA/
14:38:52 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
14:38:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-minutes.html matatk
14:39:08 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Expressed in various ways
14:39:17 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Raised two focus concerns
14:39:31 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: What about a URI with many services? Which do you show?
14:39:57 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Also interested to jump to location on page
14:40:13 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Avoid banner, ads, etc
14:40:31 <janina> janina: And grey out everything else--even if they didn't articulate that in this telecon
14:40:59 <janina> matatk: little to add ...
14:41:16 <janina> matatk: Have 5 to review but touch on these themes
14:41:25 <janina> q+
14:41:57 <janina> q+ to suggest we can't be responsible for ambiguous information publishing design patterns
14:42:25 <janina> matatk: Help: Content on page? Chatbot? Human? What kind of help
14:43:01 <janina> matatk: Keen to continue a conversation with us
14:44:09 <Lionel_Wolberger> Abhinav: Please spell out the problem with multiple services on a single FQDN
14:45:08 <janina> matatk: 5 questions re frame of reference/inclusion questions
14:45:22 <janina> matatk: Present the user with a term they expect
14:45:58 <janina> matatk: If help says "sign-in"; is it OK for us to generadize to login?
14:46:29 <janina> matatk: A site should be aware--but they may not be
14:47:20 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger: 'should be aware' -- the site, having configured the well-known url, should be quite aware of which pages are on offer
14:48:20 <janina> matatk: Next divergence between what people expect and what they will get
14:48:42 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: The broad WKD, like 'help' could lead to chat, phone, email, or a FAQ.
14:48:44 <janina> matatk: We noted help and support module coming; but we need to be design mindful now
14:49:01 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... users will want to know what to expect when they reach a well known destination
14:49:16 <Lionel_Wolberger> q+
14:49:19 <Abhinav> q+
14:49:34 <janina> ~m
14:49:58 <Lionel_Wolberger> matatk: Location on the page. Would like the destination to resolve to a location on the page
14:50:00 <janina> matatk: 3 Where on the page; was interpreted different ways
14:50:10 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... location also can refer to where the WKD list is
14:50:17 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we would like it in the user agent
14:50:30 <janina> matatk: Highlighting the relevant content was raised
14:51:26 <janina> matatk: 4 about search destination ...
14:51:43 <janina> matatk: Noted that search is sometimes with a chatbot
14:51:54 <janina> matatk: So a matter of setting expectations
14:52:22 <janina> matatk: 5 about subsites ...
14:52:32 <janina> matatk: Had the example of hotel
14:52:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... We have had a use case of a hotel that also has a spa, which login is supported?
14:52:53 <janina> matatk: We heard of bank site, once logged in home page might be your personal account once logged in
14:53:37 <janina> matatk: Call noted COGA documentation on returning to beginning of a process interaction -- but that doesn't have a URI
14:54:19 <janina> matatk: What we go with needs to be defined by our use cases
14:55:19 <Lionel_Wolberger> Lionel_Wolberger has joined #Adapt
14:55:31 <matatk> q?
14:55:34 <matatk> ack janina
14:55:34 <Zakim> janina, you wanted to suggest we can't be responsible for ambiguous information publishing design patterns
14:55:35 <Lionel_Wolberger> ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:55:36 <matatk> ack Lionel_Wolberger
14:55:44 <Lionel_Wolberger> ack Abhinav
14:55:52 <Lionel_Wolberger> Abhinav: Question about a chat bot
14:56:07 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... how can we know what kind of support is found for a particular site
14:57:23 <janina> Lionel_Wolberger: Site owners will decide!
14:57:30 <janina> matatk: IA thoughts for next time!
14:57:40 <Lionel_Wolberger> ... we can write paragraphs on what the standard will expect
14:57:45 <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, end meeting
14:57:45 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Russell, janina, Lionel_Wolberger, Abhinav
14:57:46 <matatk> present+
14:57:47 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:57:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/18-adapt-minutes.html Zakim
14:57:54 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Lionel_Wolberger; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
14:57:55 <Zakim> Zakim has left #adapt