16:57:15 RRSAgent has joined #aria 16:57:19 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/13-aria-irc 16:57:19 RRSAgent, make logs Public 16:57:20 Meeting: ARIA WG 16:57:28 agendabot, find agenda 16:57:28 jamesn, OK. This may take a minute... 16:57:29 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240613T130000/ 16:57:29 clear agenda 16:57:29 agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/39pv9d43 16:57:29 agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/cfytuu9x 16:57:35 agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests 16:57:36 spectranaut_ has joined #aria 16:57:37 agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates 16:57:39 agenda+ -> TPAC Draft Schedule https://www.w3.org/2024/05/tpac2024-schedule-20240523.html 16:57:42 agenda+ Monorepo Update 16:57:45 agenda+ -> ARIA Notify Followup https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/1957 16:57:47 agenda+ -> Consider adding headings to feed's allowed accessibility children https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2236 16:57:50 agenda+ -> ARIA should clarify distinction between “contents exposed as descendant text nodes” vs “name from contents” (Was: listitem should include name from Contents or name prohibited) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2160 and -> td, th naming doesn't align with ARIA 16:57:55 … https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/543 16:58:07 agenda? 17:00:30 ray-schwartz has joined #ARIA 17:00:40 present+ 17:00:46 present+ 17:02:08 sohara has joined #aria 17:02:19 giacomo-petri has joined #aria 17:02:22 present+ 17:02:23 present+ 17:02:23 present+ 17:02:46 zakim, next item 17:02:46 agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/39pv9d43 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:03:05 present+ 17:03:11 scribe: Rahim 17:03:55 spectranaut_: A lot of the new issues are from me, from mono repo work 17:04:09 BGaraventa has joined #aria 17:04:15 q+ 17:04:16 siri has joined #aria 17:04:25 for aria #2241, discussed a few years ago but we should formalize a process for this 17:04:46 filippo-zorzi has joined #aria 17:04:50 present+ BGaraventa 17:04:58 present+ 17:05:25 jamesn: need to mindful of process; need for them to work with APA (Accessible Platforms Architecture which serves as horizontal review group for other specs) 17:06:04 sarah has joined #aria 17:06:10 jcraig: people that are doing review are in ARIA WG (not APA) 17:06:13 present+ 17:06:49 jongund has joined #aria 17:07:20 present+ 17:07:26 spectranaut_: will figure out whether it needs to be discussed later this week 17:08:40 present+ 17:09:57 jamesn: for #2238, anyone who has knowledge of github and GH APIs, help would be appreciated 17:10:01 zakim, next item 17:10:01 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Rahim 17:10:10 zakim, next item 17:10:10 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Rahim 17:10:13 ack me 17:10:15 zakim, next item 17:10:15 agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/cfytuu9x -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:11:25 https://w3c.github.io/aria/#conflict_resolution_presentation_none 17:12:15 giacomo-petri: for aria #2237: scope of conflict resolution is split into two. Grouped the notes in the PR into different paragraphs; the notes are related only to the last bullet (as opposed to related to the entire conflict resolution group) 17:12:35 ..scott has been added as a reviewer 17:13:11 zakim, next item 17:13:11 agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:13:46 Matt_King has joined #aria 17:13:59 present+ 17:14:06 Have to drop off suddenly, regrets! 17:14:22 spectranaut_: no open WPT issues aside from adam's issue (wpt #46527) 17:15:03 https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname%2Chtml-aam%2Cgraphics-aria%2Cgraphics-aam%2Cgraphics-aria%2Cdpub-aam%2Cdpub-aria%2Csvg-aam%2Csvg-aria&type=pullrequests 17:15:06 https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y 17:15:28 zakim, next item 17:15:28 agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:15:49 spectranaut_: in two weeks time, we have a deepdive planned for Jun 27 17:16:14 ...related to clarification around "undefined" 17:16:36 jamesn: we won't be meeting on July 4th (holiday) 17:16:40 zakim, next item 17:16:40 agendum 5 -- -> TPAC Draft Schedule https://www.w3.org/2024/05/tpac2024-schedule-20240523.html -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:17:06 jongund has joined #aria 17:17:12 spectranaut_: heads-up that a draft has been scheduled for TPAC 17:17:43 jamesn: in the TPAC schedule, search for "accessible rich internet applications" for our sessions 17:18:34 ...in September later this year, in Anaheim, California 17:19:25 zakim, next item 17:19:25 agendum 6 -- Monorepo Update -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:20:03 jamesn: registration for TPAC opens within the next week; webpage is almost done. I would highly recommend registering and using the room block 17:20:26 spectranaut_: we have now merged all of the specifications into the ARIA repository. If you open a new PR, open it in the ARIA repo 17:20:42 jongund has joined #aria 17:20:55 ...action items open for spec editors to review all of the PRs we've moved over, and make sure the PRs have relevant information to continue review process. Also, ensure closing the old PRs against the individual specs 17:21:16 ...Peter K and I will handle the AAMs with less active editors 17:21:28 ...if you have issues with process or tools, please file against ARIA repo 17:21:53 Matt_King: Thank you for making this happen, Valerie. It was a big lift 17:22:14 ...special thanks to Peter/Daniel as well. Hope it pays off 17:22:57 dmontalvo: we want to keep the old editor's draft URLs, still working on fixing this 17:23:55 https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/238 17:24:06 BGaraventa: could you flag this as an action item for me (as spec editor)? [accname #238 which is assigned to Bryan/Mel] 17:24:18 spectranaut_: any questions or concerns? 17:24:24 zakim, next item 17:24:24 agendum 7 -- -> ARIA Notify Followup https://github.com/w3c/aria/discussions/1957 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:25:29 Present + 17:25:30 spectranaut_: for aria #1957, there are some new issues following deepdive from a couple weeks ago. We've (ARIA WG) been adding one agenda item for aria-notify follow-up per week, should we continue doing that? 17:26:00 sarah: sounds like a good approach 17:26:09 zakim, next item 17:26:09 agendum 8 -- -> Consider adding headings to feed's allowed accessibility children https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2236 -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:27:31 sarah: for aria #2236, we discussed this in triage last week. It's a use case where, in a feed such as a blog feed, in addition to headings in articles you have additional headings that group content. I ran into this using role="feed"/"article" for chat message roles. Had headings that were time-stamped, so you could get a new time-stamped message on a frequent basis 17:28:11 ...could be a use case to have headings in "feed"; instead of specifically adding heading, per Scott, might make sense to look at content model for allowed roles 17:28:51 ...other examples include where posinset/setsize are allowed 17:28:52 q+ 17:29:41 Matt_King: I have a concern about this related to "feed"; the contract/understanding on the AT side is that you're navigating feed by article, that you'll hit (navigate to) everything. How might we address that such as this case, where headings are wrapped in an article 17:30:07 sarah: I've been doing user studies on chat usage; I've found that people use headings to navigate although arrow keys are available. People switch fluidly between the two, or jumping to arrow (browse mode) navigation when it makes sense 17:30:36 ...heading information is available, i.e., time-stamp information. Don't notice anything missing when navigating via arrow keys 17:31:11 ack me 17:31:53 jamesn: I'm unhappy if we go the heading route; we even need to go the content model route which seems like a huge task. Especially if we want to do this across more things, and thinking more carefully about other things that may be potentially useful on a feed 17:32:31 ...any of the generic text ones make as much sense as a heading; a separator makes sense. Do we look for use cases for all of them? It's a choice we want to make about the complexity we want to add to the spec 17:33:14 Matt_King: if you add both "heading"/"separator" roles, not sure why that's different 17:33:59 q+ 17:34:14 jcraig: this is a good opportunity to express previous opinion; feed is a container that could be a flow container which contains a number of things. It would be nice if it contained encapsulated articles and heading but not necessarily an authoring error 17:34:16 ack sohara 17:34:48 q+ 17:34:50 Scott: maybe I'm missing something, is there something in spec that says you can't put things in there right now? As far as I can tell, conformance checkers are treating it as if not listed in required roles, they are flagged as failures 17:34:58 From the spec: Allowed Accessibility Child Roles: article 17:35:07 q+ 17:35:10 A list of roles which are allowed on an accessibility child (simplified as "child") of the element with this role. Authors MUST only add child element with allowed roles. 17:35:21 jamesn said what I was going to :D 17:35:25 ...I'm looking at the spec now, and unless I'm missing something, it seems ambiguous. To James Craig's point, if we do a content model, we should clarify that there are no requirements for "disallowing" things 17:35:43 https://w3c.github.io/aria/#mustContain 17:36:29 q- 17:36:30 ack Matt_King 17:37:36 Matt_King: Two points regarding permissiveness and content model. RE: content model, if it's not too big of a lift to go in the direction of a content model for ARIA, I think it's great for the long-term extensibility and clarity of the spec (and that it works from the HTML side) although it's likely not an issue that needs to be resolved overnight 17:37:46 ...could be a great incubator for that idea 17:38:43 ...RE: permissiveness, if it was conceived as/intended to be a list, i.e., an actual structure as opposed to a random container such that there is a clear navigation ideology (like lists/tables, that are useful structures). We need to be careful there that we don't put random elements in lists/table, the point is for it to be a useful structure 17:39:28 spectranaut_: Can anyone justify why it (content model) is useful? 17:39:42 q+ to say and it allows a bunch of weird stuff 17:39:46 q+ 17:40:32 Scott: Group elements by type and what's allowed where; can have exceptions to those, e.g., links are of a particular content model but can't put other interactive children in link. Essentially, it's a way to group things in a way of what's allowed and calls out what is excluded 17:41:17 ...I've run into this with developers, putting div with button role inside link; HTML validator allows this for ARIA although it's not OK 17:41:48 ...this is why Steve F. made "ARIA in HTML"; it's informative currently. The benefit was to describe rules that weren't in ARIA and didn't have a place to live 17:41:57 ack jamesn 17:41:57 jamesn, you wanted to say and it allows a bunch of weird stuff 17:42:09 jamesn: the content model in HTML may encourage bad practices, although it can cause issues 17:42:11 ack me 17:42:27 Scott: it's not perfect, and doesn't align with parser. You can break the content model and in many cases, that is OK 17:42:31 q+ 17:43:42 sarah: I was going to suggest that we don't replicate HTML content model; things that are useful IMO are widgets like buttons/links, composite widgets, interactive roles allowed within interactive widgets 17:43:59 ...things that don't exist in HMTL could be useful in ARIA for spec work 17:44:14 Matt_King: we do take advantage of abstract roles in spec language, but can be problematic at times 17:45:38 siri: Going back to what Matt/James was saying, what is the advantage to using feed/separator? A label isn't provided so how does this benefit screen reader users. If we provide time stamps as heading content, how does this help users? 17:46:36 Matt_King: Some screen readers have the ability to navigate by separator; but limited to HTML separator and not ARIA separator 17:46:54 q+ 17:46:55 spectranaut_: there doesn't appear to be a conclusion from this discussion 17:47:08 siri 17:47:11 queue? 17:47:16 Matt_King: we could have a blended option; as a lightweight approach, add heading/separator as allowed children of feed in the near term 17:47:20 ack siri 17:47:42 ...someone could then start pulling together the concept of a content model which could make it into the next spec version (e.g., v1.3) 17:47:57 sarah: I would be happy to write the PR for this, although I know Scott is interested in this 17:48:14 ...can put together a draft of content model stuff to concretize discussion 17:48:18 zakim, next item 17:48:18 I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Rahim 17:48:22 ack sarah 17:48:24 zakim, next item 17:48:24 agendum 9 -- -> ARIA should clarify distinction between “contents exposed as descendant text nodes” vs “name from contents” (Was: listitem should include name from Contents 17:48:27 ... or name prohibited) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2160 and -> td, th naming doesn't align with ARIA -- taken up [from agendabot] 17:51:07 jcraig: for AAMs, we don't have a clear distinction between things that have an accessible name (from contents, e.g., , text leaf nodes) as opposed to a11y APIs that don't expose an element's accname from contents 17:51:30 ...some tests rely on testing accname for listitem; errata/bug related to whether this would name from author or contents 17:52:19 ...almost like a property we could use to test, e.g., have name, description and this other thing that would be "contents" which would be testable from a WPT perspective. E.g., listitem, paragraph, where name doesn't necessarily apply 17:53:04 spectranaut_: when you say that it would help us test, e.g., getComputedContent like getComputedLabel 17:53:34 jcraig: something like el.getInnerText; then, verify from a11y tree, does the browser internal engine have the same thing that is exposed down to the platform 17:54:32 ...another thing that would come out of this, we're able to test less because of this errata. Perhaps this would be more valuable from a testing perspective to compare across engines 17:55:45 ...html-aam also doesn't identify how list items can be named. We could say name from author prohibited in spec 17:56:41 Scott: my opinion hasn't changed; author naming of list items doesn't do anything from my testing. Some cases, e.g., moving focus to them, some AT/browser combinations will announce author name from aria-label. However for browse mode, author label isn't exposed...regardless, why are you making list items focusable at all 17:57:35 q+ 17:57:53 ...I'm more in favor of prohibiting it since the use of it isn't well supported anyway (less things for browsers to fix). The last we talked about it, Sarah had mentioned the desire to make an interactive list role although that work may be undone by work for interactive lists 17:58:43 q? 17:58:51 jcraig: should we use the same pattern for all similar roles (e.g., paragraph)? Then name would be prohibited for listitem and use the same pattern down the line for equivalent elements 17:58:52 ack me 17:58:55 zakim, close the queue 17:58:55 ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed 17:59:42 sarah: I agree with that (just use a different role); putting name prohibited makes sense 18:00:14 spectranaut_: it sounds like there is an action item to remove name allowed for listitem. Does anyone disagree? 18:00:18 +1 to name prohibited from listitem 18:01:24 jongund has joined #aria 18:41:03 jongund has joined #aria 19:10:02 RRSAgent, make minutes 19:10:03 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/13-aria-minutes.html spectranaut_ 19:11:56 zakim, end meeting 19:11:56 As of this point the attendees have been elguerrero, ray-schwartz, Mario, giacomo-petri, Rahim, jamesn, BGaraventa, filippo-zorzi, sarah, sohara, jcraig, Matt_King 19:11:59 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:12:01 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/13-aria-minutes.html Zakim 19:12:06 I am happy to have been of service, spectranaut_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:12:06 Zakim has left #aria 19:52:11 jongund has joined #aria 21:04:51 jongund has joined #aria 21:42:26 jongund has joined #aria 22:28:37 jongund has joined #aria