17:52:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg
17:52:31 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/11-aria-apg-irc
17:52:50 <Jem> Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practice Guide
17:52:56 <Jem> Chair: Jemma_Ku
17:53:07 <Jem> rrsagent, make minutes
17:53:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/11-aria-apg-minutes.html Jem
17:57:19 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike has joined #aria-apg
17:58:39 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-apg
17:58:59 <arigilmore> arigilmore has joined #aria-apg
18:00:40 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
18:00:44 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
18:00:56 <jugglinmike> present+ Jem
18:01:00 <jugglinmike> present+ arigilmore
18:01:42 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/June-11%2C-2024-Agenda
18:01:57 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria-apg
18:02:00 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
18:02:05 <jugglinmike> present+ jongund
18:02:12 <jongund> present+ jongund
18:02:18 <Matt_King> present+
18:02:28 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/wiki/June-11%2C-2024-Agenda
18:02:30 <jugglinmike> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
18:03:10 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-apg
18:03:13 <howard-e> present+
18:03:29 <Matt_King> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/11-aria-apg-minutes.html Matt_King
18:03:54 <Jem> rrsagent, make log public
18:04:46 <Matt_King> MEETING: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force
18:05:01 <jugglinmike> Topic: Setup and Review Agenda
18:05:11 <jugglinmike> Jem: Next meeting: June 18
18:05:30 <jugglinmike> Jem: July 4th is a holiday in the US
18:05:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That falls on a Thursday this year
18:06:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Do we want to meet on Tuesday, July 2?
18:06:32 <jugglinmike> Jem: I am taking the week of July 1 off for vacation
18:07:25 <jugglinmike> arigilmore: I will be out the week after that
18:07:36 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: Howard and I will also be out the week of July 8
18:07:55 <jugglinmike> Jem: I'm out on July 9th
18:08:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: okay, we'll plan on meeting on July 2 but cancelling the July 9 meeting
18:08:17 <jugglinmike> Jem: Any requests for change to agenda?
18:08:28 <jugglinmike> jongund: I'd like to discuss a new feature for skipTo.js
18:08:50 <jugglinmike> Topic: Publication planning
18:09:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're shooting for June 25th as a next publication date
18:09:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Jon's "quality review" pull request is awaiting review from howard-e
18:10:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3024
18:13:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It looks like there are no reviewers, actually.
18:13:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm going to assign howard-e for code review
18:14:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: the other things for this milestone are either later in the agenda or not ready for review, yet
18:14:34 <jugglinmike> Topic: Change high contrast system color in ratings slider
18:14:43 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/pull/3025
18:15:09 <jugglinmike> jongund: I changed the system color link text to "button text". It just makes our widgets look more like form controls than links
18:15:42 <jugglinmike> s/button text/buttontext/
18:19:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: why are two files changed?
18:19:26 <jugglinmike> jongund: cspell checks CSS files for spelling
18:19:34 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That seems undesirable
18:20:06 <jugglinmike> s/cspell/I also had to change the cspell configuration. cspell/
18:20:46 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I can look into that
18:21:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Does this color change impact all contexts? Or only high-contrast mode?
18:21:50 <jugglinmike> jongund: Only high-contrast mode
18:22:44 <jugglinmike> jongund: Depending on how you test it, you don't necessarily need Windows
18:23:10 <jugglinmike> jongund: In Chrome, for instance, you can use the developer tools to simulate high-contrast mode
18:24:15 <jugglinmike> jongund: This probably won't affect macOS users
18:26:08 <jugglinmike> jongund: The only place I know this pull request will make a difference is in Windows
18:27:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So the pull request should have screenshots of the difference (before and after), and also instructions for how a reviewer can observe the difference themself
18:27:36 <jugglinmike> Jem: I can review once jongund adds that information
18:27:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, I'll assign you, then
18:28:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: is this a change you were just trying out for the one slider? Do you think it should be applied to the other examples if people like it?
18:29:37 <jugglinmike> jongund: Yes, I think we should use it elsewhere. Though we only use the "forced colors" media query in one other pattern--feed. I'd also like to add it to other patterns
18:30:33 <jugglinmike> Topic: Mouse behavior differences between Select-only and editable combobox
18:30:47 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2966
18:31:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Curt_Bellew did some work on this
18:31:22 <Jem> https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2966#issuecomment-2124992753
18:32:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When someone changes which option is highlighted in the list of options using the keyboard. So the value isn't actually set at this moment. Then, they click outside of the combobox
18:32:21 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Because the click closes the dropdown, should that impact the selected value?
18:32:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In other words, should clicking outside be treated like "enter"/"tab" or like "escape"?
18:32:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we were wondering what browsers do for standard selects
18:33:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Chrome and Firefox on macOS both return to the initial value, (treating it like "escape")
18:33:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Windows does the opposite
18:34:17 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is not what I was expecting!
18:35:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If we were going to have our combobox mimic the behavior based on the platform... We could do that, but it feels batty to me
18:36:21 <jugglinmike> [general discussion]
18:36:32 <jugglinmike> jongund: I don't think it should be operating-system dependent
18:36:59 <jugglinmike> s/think it/think the behavior of the APG's combobox/
18:37:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The select-only combobox behaves like Windows. The auto-complete combobox behaves like macOS.
18:37:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we have inconsistencies between our examples
18:38:37 <jugglinmike> present+ Mark_McCarthy
18:38:52 <jugglinmike> Mark_McCarthy: I agree with jongund. We should choose one operating system to mimic
18:39:26 <jugglinmike> Bryan_Garaventa: I think the two examples should match
18:40:36 <jugglinmike> jongund: It seems like clicking outside the box is more like hitting "escape", conceptually
18:40:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I agree. If the user is expressing an intent, it seems like it's "get me out of here"
18:41:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: (None of this affects screen reader users because we can't click outside of the box, even if we wanted to.)
18:46:19 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: It may be that some users (particularly sighted users) don't recognize that highlighting an item is not the same as selecting it. From that perspective, it would be surprising for selection *not* to occur after clicking outside
18:47:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It sounds like collectively, we have a preference for making this behave like "escape" (which is how the native element behaves on macOS)
18:47:48 <jugglinmike> Jem: In my opinion, I think it's important to have consistency in APG.
18:48:43 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In terms of prioritization, I am adding the "bug"  label to this issue, now
18:49:39 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In terms of the severity of the bug, this is clearly not a blocking problem. It seems like a sub-3 kind of bug. It's an inconsistency, but it's an inconsistency that's hard to find
18:50:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm going to label this "P3" for now; does anyone disagree?
18:50:44 <jugglinmike> Jem: I really don't like the inconsistency, but I'm okay with that
18:51:22 <jugglinmike> Topic: Select-only combobox enter key behavior
18:51:30 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2998
18:52:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: this is another inconsistency within the APG and also an inconsistency with the native "select"
18:54:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't know why we have the "enter" key expanding. Maybe it's because that's what menu buttons do
18:55:07 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Do people think we should remove the "Enter to open" on the select-only combobox example?
18:55:19 <jugglinmike> Bryan_Garaventa: I've used that in the past
18:55:35 <jugglinmike> jongund: Enter has not been a past default action
18:55:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Because our combobox is collapsed by default and because it's select-only, it has a lot of similarities with menu button
18:57:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I have questions about the visual design of the select-only combobox
18:57:23 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Does it look like a button? And can you click on a down-arrow icon to expand it? Or does it even have a down-arrow icon?
18:57:40 <jugglinmike> arigilmore: It has an arrow, but you can click anywhere on the box to open it
18:57:51 <jugglinmike> arigilmore: It's styled more like a button
18:58:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So it looks more like a menu button than an input field
18:58:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If you can click to expand it, then I'm thinking that pressing "enter" to expand it is analogous
18:58:38 <jugglinmike> Bryan_Garaventa: I would agree with that
18:58:56 <jugglinmike> Mark_McCarthy: Me too. As a keyboard user, it seems like it can't hurt
18:59:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, we'll stick with the "enter" key behavior and treat this as an editorial problem
18:59:53 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We'll make a change to the text of the "keyboard" section of the combobox pattern
19:00:27 <jugglinmike> Topic: skipTo.js feature change
19:00:43 <jugglinmike> jongund: I spoke with some folks at Walmart about possibly adopting skipTo.js
19:01:18 <jugglinmike> jongund: They have a feature request which is to give feed-forward about where it will take you
19:01:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's exactly what we did at Facebook, and we got positive feedback from the community
19:02:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: But we didn't have developer interest in supporting it in the long term, so we eventually removed it
19:02:22 <jugglinmike> jongund: Would you be interested in talking with them?
19:02:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Sure
19:02:32 <jugglinmike> Mark_McCarthy: I would, too
19:02:36 <jugglinmike> jongund: Thank you so much!
19:02:56 <jugglinmike> jongund: I'll make a prototype that we can review at some future date
19:03:00 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
19:03:00 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Jem, arigilmore, Matt_King, jongund, Bryan_Garaventa, howard-e, Mark_McCarthy
19:03:02 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
19:03:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/11-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim
19:03:11 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
19:03:11 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
19:03:11 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
19:03:11 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-apg