14:54:17 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #coga
14:54:21 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/10-coga-irc
14:54:21 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:54:22 <Zakim> Meeting: Cognitive and Learning Disabilities Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:54:22 <Rain> I'm not sure we did, but I'll copy these minutes into the doc
14:54:29 <Lisa> perfect
14:54:45 <Lisa> for the muints we were discusing the color patern
14:54:55 <Lisa> current draft https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CeqiSy3tVDoeBzCG8LpkyFT1fvugGk86JuT6NvfSiAA/edit#heading=h.25ug0gct5wb0
14:55:07 <Lisa> summary of the last hour will be in there
14:55:26 <tburtin> I want to for sure include these concepts but also not exclude those with color contrast issues like myself
14:56:22 <JMcSorley> +1 to considering breaking this into more than one pattern - I think we might be more likely to get the recommendations approved if they are tied to other recommendations, where appropriate.
14:56:32 <julierawe> +1
15:00:06 <Justine> Justine has joined #coga
15:00:22 <Lisa> agenda?
15:00:31 <Eric_hind> Eric_hind has joined #coga
15:00:39 <Eric_hind> present+
15:00:58 <tburtin> present+
15:01:27 <Lisa> scribe: Jan
15:01:39 <Jennie> Jennie has joined #coga
15:01:43 <Rain> present+
15:01:44 <Jennie> present+
15:01:56 <Frankie> Frankie has joined #coga
15:02:03 <Frankie> present+
15:02:12 <Lisa> present+
15:02:39 <Lisa> scribe: Eric
15:02:40 <kirkwood> present+
15:02:48 <julierawe> present+
15:03:41 <rashmi> present+
15:04:05 <Eric_hind> Lisa: Review Action Items
15:04:58 <Eric_hind> Lisa: Issue papers moved to github per email recently.  Will need editors and comments.
15:06:20 <Eric_hind> Lisa: 3 papers will need approval
15:06:36 <Eric_hind> Eric: will be cleaning up github issues (old issues)
15:07:29 <Eric_hind> Lisa: More to put into supported decision making.   Due end of May, we should be able to move it forward in a couple of weeks.
15:08:02 <Eric_hind> Julieawe: Style guide making progress, Frankie to review and then to be shared with group
15:08:37 <Eric_hind> Rashmi: mental health proposals continuing
15:11:30 <Eric_hind> Rain: Structure subgroup , prototyping continuing.  Working with Roy on some adjustments.  Working on validation schedule and techniques
15:11:54 <Eric_hind> Lisa: Images on hold
15:14:00 <Lisa> q?
15:14:56 <kirkwood> q+
15:15:11 <Lisa> ack next
15:15:23 <tburtin> The survey: https://url.usb.m.mimecastprotect.com/s/BMIYCoAW9kivp0EM6ODi1tRRU?domain=w3.org/
15:15:27 <Eric_hind> Julierawe: Clear language and WCAG 3, looking at conformance models.
15:15:48 <julierawe> Thank you, Tiffany, for sharing the link!
15:16:12 <Eric_hind> Kirkwood: agree that survey may not be as easy to understand without context or full understanding
15:16:16 <tburtin> It copied funny https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/Requirements_Survey/
15:16:47 <Justine> +1 to John and Julie about the survey
15:17:21 <Rain> q+
15:18:16 <tburtin> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag-3.0/ is still very general
15:18:34 <Lisa> ack next
15:18:36 <Lisa> ack next
15:19:53 <Frankie> q+
15:19:57 <julierawe> Here is what we said in an email to the AG chairs:
15:19:57 <kirkwood> q+  the survey is overwhelming
15:20:09 <tburtin> I have already spent 2 hours going back and forth to any of the scratch pads I had.
15:20:46 <julierawe> Cognitive barriers in this survey
15:20:46 <julierawe> (1) Each of the 200 or so outcomes is on a different topic, so users have to reorient themselves with every row. This alone is exhausting.
15:20:46 <julierawe> As presented, the list is a wall of text and challenging to read if you have a reading or visual processing disability.
15:20:46 <julierawe> (2) Each outcome only has a one-sentence description. The survey does not include any context, exceptions, or links to more information. Users don't have enough to go on to make informed guesses.
15:20:48 <julierawe> (4a) Related, the vote is binary (check the box for yes, leave unchecked for no), so someone who doesn’t know enough about a topic can’t abstain from voting on it if they fill out the form.
15:20:48 <julierawe> (3) There are only two comment boxes, which means users have to scroll a lot if they want to note which of the ~200 outcomes they don’t have enough information to go on to make an up-or-down vote. This is a big burden on working memory and cognitive load in general.
15:20:48 <julierawe> (4) There are no section headers in these incredibly long lists of outcomes so if users take the time and energy to scroll down to make a comment about one of them, it is very hard to scroll back and find where you were in the list. This too is exhausting.
15:21:11 <Eric_hind> Rain: Warning; survey may be too long - perhaps many hours and is too overwhelming to many.
15:22:09 <kirkwood> If I had more time I would have writtten a shorter survey
15:22:19 <kirkwood> q+
15:22:36 <Lisa> ack next
15:23:23 <JMcSorley> +1 for not completing the survey as noted by Rain, Frankie, and Julie
15:23:28 <Lisa> ack next
15:23:29 <Eric_hind> Lisa: Group feeling is that the survey is very difficult to use.  Frankie feels that there needs to be another approach that is more inclusive
15:24:48 <Lisa> Q?
15:24:49 <Eric_hind> Lisa: Will give this feedback to the group who gave it to us
15:26:24 <Lisa> agenda?
15:26:28 <Eric_hind> JMcSorley: Internationalization process and goals is proceeding with different groups (AG, Int'l).  Concern about feedback process much like survey concerns.
15:27:32 <Eric_hind> julierawe: Looking for flags related to things we need to discuss rather than remove (as related to internationalization)
15:27:52 <Eric_hind> DavidSwallow: No updates from APA.
15:27:58 <Lisa> next item
15:28:08 <Lisa> close item 1
15:28:15 <Lisa> next item
15:29:36 <julierawe> q+
15:30:01 <Eric_hind> Lisa: Editors notes for old issue papers; basic notes were published years ago and Julierawe mentioned some wording updates as related to how we describe the changes or delta with research or wording.
15:30:14 <Lisa> This issue paper is out of date. An update is being worked on
15:30:14 <Lisa> > <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L9-Wo2a78Ahuu3Q-16iyJUY8vp0pr4GWanylj6j3q7Q/edit#heading=h.tq3x4qwxxtd2>.
15:30:43 <Lisa> This issue paper is out of date. An update is availible at ...
15:30:48 <julierawe> q+
15:31:04 <Lisa> ack next
15:31:31 <Lisa> This issue paper is out of date. An update is being worked on at
15:31:38 <Lisa> +1
15:31:39 <Eric_hind> Lisa: Vote related to Symbols paper, if out of date, wording change to "The issue paper is out of date. An update is being worked at <URL>
15:33:01 <Lisa> This draft is out of date. An update that addresses new technologies is being worked on at ...
15:33:06 <Lisa> +1
15:33:07 <Eric_hind> Lisa: Restated:  "This draft is out of date, an update that addresses new technologies is being working on at:"
15:33:07 <julierawe> +1
15:33:11 <Jennie> +1
15:33:12 <Rain> +1
15:33:13 <Eric_hind> +1
15:33:16 <Frankie> +1
15:33:17 <JMcSorley> +1
15:33:20 <tburtin> +1
15:33:22 <kirkwood> +1
15:33:39 <DavidSwallow> +!
15:33:42 <DavidSwallow> +1
15:33:58 <Eric_hind> Lisa: Vote carried to the change (all +1)
15:35:52 <Lisa> This draft is out of date. There may be  new research  and  new technologies that are relivent to this topic.
15:36:19 <Lisa> q?
15:37:00 <julierawe> "This draft may be out of date" vs "This draft is out of date"?
15:37:19 <Rain> "This draft is being updated to"
15:37:21 <Lisa> This draft may be out of date. There may be  new research  and  new technologies that are relivent to this topic.
15:37:44 <julierawe> And change "relivent" to "relevant"
15:37:52 <Lisa> +1
15:37:53 <Rain> +1 to updated language
15:37:56 <julierawe> +1
15:37:57 <Eric_hind> +1
15:38:01 <Jennie> +1
15:38:03 <kirkwood> +1
15:38:10 <Frankie> +1
15:38:16 <Eric_hind> Vote carried to the change (all +1)
15:38:20 <Lisa> next item
15:39:13 <julierawe> When is this meeting?
15:39:28 <Eric_hind> Lisa: Note that Adapt specification will be about a half part of next weeks meetings - FYI on next weeks COGA call. (matt and Lionel)
15:39:56 <Eric_hind> Lisa: Making content usable, new suggestions.
15:40:46 <Eric_hind> Rashmi: Review New pattern name "Place the primary action button after all of the fields that require user input"
15:40:53 <Lisa> 17 the june is with adapt
15:43:27 <Jennie> q+ recommend visually and programmatically - place programmatically and visually after
15:43:30 <Jennie> q+
15:43:43 <Lisa> ack next
15:43:59 <Jennie> place programmatically and visually after
15:44:14 <tburtin> +1 Jennie
15:44:21 <Rain> +1 I've seen people do this wrong many times!
15:44:25 <rashmi> +1
15:44:26 <Eric_hind> +1
15:45:30 <Lisa> +1
15:46:04 <Eric_hind> Eric_hind: Vote carried to the change (all +1)
15:46:44 <Jennie> q+
15:47:14 <Lisa> ack next
15:47:23 <Jennie> 1.3.2
15:47:23 <Jennie> Meaningful Sequence
15:47:23 <Jennie> Level A
15:48:56 <Eric_hind> Jennie: Note on 1.3.2; we should write to strengthen this criteria from the first "Primary action button" pattern we just discussed.
15:49:46 <Eric_hind> Rashmi: New pattern, "The error messages should be easy to notice/locate Or error messages should be near or in proximity to the related field"
15:50:50 <kirkwood> is that already covered in a different SC?
15:51:31 <Eric_hind> Rashmi: When reviewing image in document (for this), there are visually (buttons/forms) covered by advertising.
15:52:48 <Lisa> an additional error message may be nessisry at the top of the page so people knpw ther eis an error
15:53:24 <Eric_hind> Lisa: Added changes/additions related to error messaging.  Need to be visually clear as well as programmatically.
15:53:26 <Lisa> Q?
15:53:27 <Jennie> 3.3.1
15:53:27 <Jennie> Error Identification
15:53:27 <Jennie> Level A - needs to add location near
15:53:53 <Rain> q+
15:54:02 <Lisa> ack next
15:54:17 <kirkwood> the context needs to be clear?
15:54:24 <Lisa> yes
15:55:05 <Jennie> Proximity visually and programmatically associated
15:55:52 <Jennie> q+
15:56:29 <Lisa> ack next
15:58:03 <Eric_hind> Jennie: Suggest that visually, the error messaging should be helpful to address the error.
15:58:26 <Lisa> do we want in with clearer langiuage
15:58:27 <Jennie> And may need to be above the field with the error
15:58:27 <Lisa> +1
15:58:36 <rashmi> +1
15:58:38 <kirkwood> +1
15:58:38 <Eric_hind> +1
15:58:40 <Jennie> +1
15:58:42 <Frankie> +1
15:58:46 <julierawe> +1
15:58:55 <Eric_hind> Eric_hind: Vote carried to the change (all +1)
15:59:21 <kirkwood> Is it that he context of the error needs to be clear?
15:59:41 <kirkwood> s/he/the
16:00:02 <julierawe> Have to hop to next meeting, thanks!
16:00:04 <Lisa> RRSAgent, publish minutes
16:00:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/10-coga-minutes.html Lisa