IRC log of rdf-star on 2024-06-06
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:56:04 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
- 15:56:08 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-rdf-star-irc
- 15:56:18 [ktk]
- meeting: RDF-star WG biweekly focused meeting
- 15:56:34 [ktk]
- Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/5ecc5c5f-5cd2-410c-b97c-6b13c6b843f1/20240606T120000/
- 15:56:35 [agendabot]
- clear agenda
- 15:56:35 [agendabot]
- agenda+ Feedback KG Forum
- 15:56:35 [agendabot]
- agenda+ 1: Map the steps to get to 2: vote on a working baseline and 3: map further work testing the use cases and verifing well-formness -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2024/05/23-rdf-star-minutes.html#t05
- 15:58:36 [ktk]
- present+
- 15:59:00 [ktk]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 15:59:01 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
- 15:59:05 [ktk]
- RRSAgent, make log public
- 15:59:15 [TallTed]
- present+
- 15:59:17 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 15:59:18 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 15:59:25 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, make logs public
- 15:59:46 [gtw]
- present+
- 16:00:00 [niklasl]
- niklasl has joined #rdf-star
- 16:00:02 [gkellogg]
- present+
- 16:00:11 [tl]
- tl has joined #rdf-star
- 16:00:19 [TallTed]
- previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/05/24-rdf-star-minutes.html
- 16:00:21 [TallTed]
- next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/06/07-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
- 16:00:25 [AZ]
- scribe+
- 16:00:26 [ktk]
- Scribe: AZ
- 16:00:28 [niklasl]
- present+
- 16:00:33 [AZ]
- present+
- 16:00:47 [ktk]
- Chair: ktk
- 16:00:49 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:00:50 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 16:00:56 [pchampin]
- present+
- 16:01:07 [tl]
- present+
- 16:01:34 [pfps]
- pfps has joined #rdf-star
- 16:01:34 [TallTed]
- s/html ktk/html
- 16:01:40 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:01:41 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 16:01:48 [pfps]
- present+
- 16:02:01 [eBremer]
- eBremer has joined #rdf-star
- 16:02:12 [TallTed]
- agenda?
- 16:03:09 [eBremer]
- present+
- 16:03:19 [ktk]
- Zakim, open issue 1
- 16:03:19 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'open issue 1', ktk
- 16:03:29 [enrico]
- enrico has joined #rdf-star
- 16:03:34 [TallTed]
- Zakim, open item 1
- 16:03:34 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 -- Feedback KG Forum -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 16:03:35 [enrico]
- present+
- 16:03:39 [Souri]
- Souri has joined #rdf-star
- 16:03:48 [Souri]
- present+
- 16:03:55 [AndyS]
- present+
- 16:04:02 [AZ]
- ktk: we had the KG forum last week
- 16:04:14 [AZ]
- ... a few people from the group were there
- 16:04:19 [doerthe]
- doerthe has joined #rdf-star
- 16:04:38 [doerthe]
- present+
- 16:04:45 [AZ]
- enrico: I was the only academic, it was a great experience,
- 16:05:36 [AZ]
- ktk: there was interest in the work we do here
- 16:06:01 [AZ]
- enrico: I was at CAiSE
- 16:06:22 [AZ]
- ... 90% of papers were related to LLMs
- 16:07:04 [AZ]
- ktk: Olaf presented a proposal for lists at ESWC
- 16:07:20 [AndyS]
- https://awslabs.github.io/SPARQL-CDTs/spec/latest.html
- 16:07:25 [AZ]
- ktk: it's a datatype for lists
- 16:07:35 [pchampin]
- https://2024.eswc-conferences.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/77770226.pdf
- 16:07:38 [pchampin]
- q+
- 16:07:39 [ktk]
- q?
- 16:07:42 [tl]
- q+
- 16:08:09 [tl]
- q-
- 16:08:20 [pchampin]
- https://www.w3.org/community/dataspaces/
- 16:08:40 [AZ]
- pchampin: there was a workshop organised by Stefan Decker related to a community group on dataspaces
- 16:08:56 [AZ]
- ... they want to propose best practices on publishing dataspaces
- 16:09:18 [AZ]
- ... dataspaces are a big thing in Europe
- 16:09:36 [ktk]
- q?
- 16:09:39 [ktk]
- ack pchampin
- 16:09:44 [ktk]
- Zakim, next item
- 16:09:44 [Zakim]
- agendum 2 -- 1: Map the steps to get to 2: vote on a working baseline and 3: map further work testing the use cases and verifing well-formness -> 1
- 16:09:46 [Zakim]
- ... https://www.w3.org/2024/05/23-rdf-star-minutes.html#t05 -- taken up [from agendabot]
- 16:10:07 [AZ]
- ktk: we must figure out how to get more concrete in the WG
- 16:10:42 [Dominik_T]
- Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
- 16:10:43 [AZ]
- ... we already made some steps on point 1. mapping
- 16:10:44 [enrico]
- q+
- 16:10:49 [Dominik_T]
- present+
- 16:11:36 [AZ]
- niklasl: the concerns mentioned by tl and pfps I share
- 16:11:38 [AZ]
- enrico
- 16:11:48 [ktk]
- ack enrico
- 16:12:02 [AZ]
- enrico: I tried to summarise what I've heard
- 16:12:39 [AZ]
- ... we now have 1 profile and there is a baseline
- 16:13:23 [AZ]
- ... there is a basic graph definition were triples are unrestricted
- 16:13:33 [AZ]
- ... this would still be simple re. pattern matching
- 16:13:50 [AZ]
- ... we introduce the well-formedness constraint
- 16:14:23 [AZ]
- ... then in RDF entailment is only defined in the well-formed fragment
- 16:15:04 [AZ]
- ... there is a vocabulary that can only be used in certain way for RDF entailment
- 16:15:26 [AZ]
- ... we restricted the annotations to be functional
- 16:15:49 [AZ]
- ... annotations can only have opaque triple in object terms
- 16:16:30 [AZ]
- ... Some criticise this saying we don't want to have everything in one syntax
- 16:16:57 [AZ]
- ... some want to have opaque triples, other transparent, or semi opaque
- 16:17:47 [pchampin]
- q+
- 16:17:47 [AZ]
- ... We could have 2 layers; one with simple entailment and when we have RDF entailment, we introduce restrictiosn
- 16:17:55 [pfps]
- q+
- 16:18:13 [ktk]
- ack pchampin
- 16:18:17 [AZ]
- pchampin: one question to enrico
- 16:18:21 [TallTed]
- Zakim, who's here?
- 16:18:21 [Zakim]
- Present: ktk, TallTed, gtw, gkellogg, niklasl, AZ, pchampin, tl, pfps, eBremer, enrico, Souri, AndyS, doerthe, Dominik_T
- 16:18:23 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see Dominik_T, doerthe, Souri, enrico, eBremer, pfps, tl, niklasl, RRSAgent, Zakim, TallTed, gkellogg, AZ, AndyS, driib5, agendabot, csarven, ktk, rhiaro, Tpt, gb,
- 16:18:23 [Zakim]
- ... pchampin, gtw
- 16:18:28 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:18:30 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 16:18:36 [AZ]
- ... there is a discrepency between what you describe and what I read
- 16:18:57 [AZ]
- ... I don't think you define "simple semantics" in your document
- 16:19:09 [AZ]
- enrico: it is defined there
- 16:19:16 [ktk]
- ack pfps
- 16:19:31 [AZ]
- pfps: my main concern is that it is a ??? not a baseline
- 16:19:39 [AndyS]
- q+
- 16:19:44 [TallTed]
- present+ pfps, eBremer, enrico, Souri, AndyS, doerthe, Dominik_T
- 16:19:47 [AZ]
- ... we get too much with this proposal
- 16:19:50 [tl]
- s/???/kitchen sink
- 16:20:12 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:20:14 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 16:20:37 [AZ]
- enrico: this is a proposal where you have everything and then we can compare to others with less
- 16:21:15 [gkellogg]
- q+
- 16:21:21 [ktk]
- ack AndyS
- 16:21:23 [AZ]
- enrico: my understanding of "baseline" is that if you want X, you can find it in the baseline
- 16:21:38 [pchampin]
- It seems that perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove (Antoine de Saint Exupéry) https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Antoine_de_Saint_Exup%C3%A9ry
- 16:21:42 [AZ]
- AndyS: this is a "baseline document", not a baseline in the sense of minimal
- 16:22:27 [AZ]
- ... by having a starting point, we can say "this is better because...", "this is this because..."
- 16:22:40 [niklasl]
- q+
- 16:22:44 [tl]
- +1 to AndyS
- 16:23:34 [AZ]
- AndyS: what I like in enrico's proposal and niklasl is that the ...
- 16:24:17 [AZ]
- ... split of the data model syntax
- 16:24:36 [AZ]
- ... and there's abstract syntax for different flavours
- 16:24:52 [gtw]
- s/split of the data model syntax/split of the data model syntax is kept minimal/
- 16:25:38 [AZ]
- gkellogg: I'm suprise to see that we have in the well formed RDf tripple term appear in subject or object
- 16:25:56 [enrico]
- q+
- 16:26:12 [ktk]
- ack gkellogg
- 16:26:19 [AZ]
- ... I don't recall that we had a discussion whether we can have a triple term in subject position
- 16:26:42 [AZ]
- enrico: only in well-formed you have certain restrictions
- 16:27:37 [pchampin]
- q+
- 16:27:37 [niklasl]
- +1 to gkellogg on simplifying things with triples only as objects
- 16:27:49 [AZ]
- gkellogg: for people who implement, they want to have base implementation that make simplification and having tripel term insubjecft can have real worl implications
- 16:27:52 [ktk]
- ack niklasl
- 16:27:58 [AZ]
- s/worl/world/
- 16:28:29 [TallTed]
- q+ to check whether "triple term" is now being a special literal, or some other kind of entity
- 16:28:35 [AZ]
- niklasl: we can address gkellogg's concerns
- 16:28:37 [pchampin]
- q-
- 16:28:47 [TallTed]
- s/tripel term insubjecft/triple term in subject/
- 16:29:09 [AZ]
- ... it's good we can put everything on the table and compare
- 16:29:31 [AZ]
- ... how do you decide whether a triple term is opaque or transparent?
- 16:29:41 [AZ]
- ... is it the predicate or something else?
- 16:30:04 [AZ]
- enrico: you need a way in the syntax to represent the different things
- 16:30:38 [AZ]
- ... how to decide the nature of the term is based on the position
- 16:30:38 [ktk]
- ack enrico
- 16:30:42 [tl]
- q+
- 16:31:58 [AZ]
- ... we should have a label to refer to syntactic sugar we have
- 16:32:25 [ktk]
- ack TallTed
- 16:32:25 [Zakim]
- TallTed, you wanted to check whether "triple term" is now being a special literal, or some other kind of entity
- 16:32:44 [AZ]
- TallTed: currently, triple term is a special kind of literal
- 16:33:03 [enrico]
- q+
- 16:33:15 [AZ]
- ... this is a problem for tools that restrict literals to object position
- 16:33:18 [tl]
- q-
- 16:33:35 [AZ]
- ... this change can have important performance issues
- 16:33:58 [niklasl]
- +1 to TallTed, that would be (IMHO too) radical (though it is a theoretical necessity for some entailments)
- 16:34:10 [AZ]
- enrico: syntactically, these are not literals; they are just interpreted as literals
- 16:34:19 [niklasl]
- q+
- 16:34:24 [ktk]
- ack enrico
- 16:34:39 [ktk]
- ack niklasl
- 16:34:51 [pchampin]
- q+
- 16:35:22 [AZ]
- niklasl: triple terms are not literals but "literal-like"
- 16:36:02 [AZ]
- ... I'm not completely sure how the baseline really works
- 16:36:20 [AZ]
- ... how it works wrt entailments
- 16:36:24 [enrico]
- Denotation of opaque triple terms: [I+A](r) = IL(SRE(r)) if r is a opaqueTripleTerm
- 16:36:42 [enrico]
- SRE maps an opaque triple term to a literal
- 16:37:07 [AndyS]
- q+
- 16:37:24 [AZ]
- ... is a token of a triple entailing the resource ???
- 16:37:47 [pfps]
- q+
- 16:38:00 [gkellogg]
- q+
- 16:38:06 [ktk]
- ack pchampin
- 16:38:28 [AZ]
- pchampin: focusing on AndyS's meta proposal
- 16:38:41 [niklasl]
- Can a token of a triple also entail that it "references" the subject, predicate and object *resources*?
- 16:38:42 [AZ]
- ... I've concerns about this being too big but can live with it
- 16:38:52 [pfps]
- q+ to mention that just because a syntactic type is used in several places that does not imply that it has the same meaning in those places
- 16:39:15 [AZ]
- ... let's keep in mind that this is not whether it is perfect or not but is this something we can live with
- 16:39:36 [Souri]
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- 16:39:46 [Souri]
- present+
- 16:39:46 [pfps]
- q-
- 16:39:51 [AndyS]
- q-
- 16:40:04 [pfps]
- Note that just because a syntactic type is used in several places that does not imply that it has the same meaning in those places.
- 16:40:11 [AZ]
- gkellogg: how can we interpret triple terms containing bnodes
- 16:40:33 [enrico]
- q+
- 16:40:45 [ktk]
- ack gkellogg
- 16:40:52 [AZ]
- ... the mapping from bnode in syntax to bnode is made by parser but how does it work here
- 16:40:54 [TallTed]
- I can live better with smaller "baseline" to which we add, than with larger "kitchen-sink (baseline?)" from which we subtract, because when we run out of time, it's easy to not add any more, but it's hard to then subtract what remains as problematic
- 16:40:59 [tl2]
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- 16:41:22 [tl2]
- present+
- 16:41:24 [AZ]
- enrico: the name of a bnode is always irrelevant
- 16:41:51 [AZ]
- ... what's relevant is whether a mentioned bnode is the same as another occurence of a mentioned bnode
- 16:42:42 [AZ]
- ... in the abstract syntax, one can have a function from bnode to something which is well defined
- 16:42:55 [AZ]
- gkellogg: there are corner cases that need by discussed
- 16:42:57 [ktk]
- q?
- 16:43:00 [ktk]
- ack enrico
- 16:43:04 [niklasl]
- q+
- 16:43:06 [AZ]
- s/by/be/
- 16:43:10 [ktk]
- ack niklasl
- 16:43:11 [gkellogg]
- s/by/to be/
- 16:43:15 [TallTed]
- q+
- 16:43:33 [ktk]
- ack TallTed
- 16:43:41 [AZ]
- niklasl: I'd like to address the "hasAnnotation" etc.
- 16:44:01 [enrico]
- q+
- 16:44:06 [pfps]
- +1 to TallTed
- 16:44:07 [ktk]
- ack enrico
- 16:44:08 [pchampin]
- good point
- 16:44:25 [AZ]
- TallTed: we may be in more trouble to start with this "baseline" rather than something from which we can add
- 16:44:42 [tl2]
- q+
- 16:44:49 [AZ]
- enrico: peopel understand "annotate" differently
- 16:44:55 [TallTed]
- s/something from which/something to which/
- 16:45:20 [TallTed]
- s/this "baseline" rather/this "baseline" and make subtractions, rather/
- 16:45:22 [AZ]
- ... we can change/restrict the proposal if needed
- 16:45:30 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:45:32 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 16:45:48 [AZ]
- ... and start the document from well-formed fragment
- 16:45:54 [ktk]
- ack tl
- 16:46:13 [Souri]
- +1 to TallTed
- 16:46:20 [AZ]
- tl2: if I +1 this proposal, it does not mean I endorse, it's that I think it's useful
- 16:46:36 [niklasl]
- Yes, baseline, not "will go to REC as is" ;)
- 16:46:36 [pchampin]
- q+
- 16:46:46 [TallTed]
- is there a draft proposal?
- 16:46:52 [AZ]
- pchampin: I sympathise with TallTed's point
- 16:47:12 [TallTed]
- q+
- 16:47:18 [ktk]
- ack pchampin
- 16:47:22 [AZ]
- ... but if time is the argument, I hope we will be time efficient
- 16:47:53 [AZ]
- ... by finding what needs to be removed from the "baseline" proposal
- 16:48:19 [ktk]
- ack TallTed
- 16:48:29 [AZ]
- ... we may lose time going one way or the other
- 16:49:02 [AZ]
- TallTed: we failed to become more efficient in the past years
- 16:49:03 [pfps]
- +1 to TallTed
- 16:49:22 [AndyS]
- q+
- 16:49:32 [tl2]
- q+
- 16:49:40 [AZ]
- ... the baseline should be the minimum we can do, instead of the "kitchen sink"
- 16:49:47 [enrico]
- q+
- 16:49:51 [niklasl]
- niklasl has joined #rdf-star
- 16:49:54 [ktk]
- ack AndyS
- 16:49:57 [niklasl]
- present+
- 16:50:07 [AZ]
- AndyS: everybody has a different idea of what is "simple"
- 16:50:10 [ktk]
- ack tl
- 16:50:55 [Souri]
- q+
- 16:50:58 [pfps]
- At several times in the past I thought we were very close to accepting something like https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-profile-%22transparent%22
- 16:50:58 [AZ]
- tl2: I think it's better to have the big picture and when someone proposes something, we have this "baseline" to compare to
- 16:50:59 [ktk]
- ack enrico
- 16:51:24 [ktk]
- ack Souri
- 16:51:37 [AZ]
- Souri: I prefer starting at a minimum baseline
- 16:51:56 [AZ]
- ... but we could approach things from both sides
- 16:52:12 [AZ]
- ... and hoepfully we meet in the middle
- 16:52:13 [doerthe]
- I am a little bit afraid of voting on a document which changes every minute (but I trust you Enrico :) )
- 16:52:30 [ktk]
- q?
- 16:52:31 [niklasl]
- q+
- 16:52:39 [ktk]
- ack niklasl
- 16:52:52 [pfps]
- q+
- 16:52:54 [tl2]
- minimum: annotating ref. transparent asserted triple terms. maximun: + unasserted triple terms, + referential opacity, + graphs
- 16:53:08 [AZ]
- niklasl: we can agree that this [enrico's baseline"] is the maximum baseline
- 16:53:23 [Souri]
- q+
- 16:53:23 [ktk]
- ack pfps
- 16:53:25 [AZ]
- pfps: there has been proposals that have been more maximum than this
- 16:53:32 [niklasl]
- I mean maximum that we've converged upon.
- 16:53:49 [niklasl]
- Not "semantics for multiple, modal datasets"... :P
- 16:53:59 [ktk]
- ack Souri
- 16:54:40 [pfps]
- At one point there was a proposal that allowed direct specification of which components of a triple term were opaque and which were transparent. This is decidedly bigger than the "baseline".
- 16:54:58 [niklasl]
- Fair point.
- 16:55:00 [TallTed]
- Please, what *is* the draft proposal? What (URI, please) *is* the "document" now being discussed?
- 16:55:11 [niklasl]
- https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/wiki/RDF-star-%22baseline%22
- 16:55:34 [tl2]
- @pfps thanks for remembering :)
- 16:56:10 [AZ]
- Souri: having unrestricted fragment is not minimum
- 16:57:02 [AZ]
- ktk: is enrico's proposal the maximum among the things that we considered seriously?
- 16:57:11 [pchampin]
- q+
- 16:57:33 [AZ]
- pchampin: let's have a strawpoll
- 16:57:45 [AZ]
- ... we don't need to do it synchronously
- 16:57:59 [AZ]
- ... we can do it by email
- 16:58:01 [TallTed]
- straw polls are useful, and are noncommittal
- 16:58:18 [Dominik_T]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:58:19 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-rdf-star-minutes.html Dominik_T
- 16:58:29 [AZ]
- ... I can write the proposal or sync with the chairs
- 16:58:37 [TallTed]
- please use the web polling tools, pchampin!
- 16:58:46 [TallTed]
- voting via email thread is beyond troublesome
- 16:58:56 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 16:58:57 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
- 16:59:18 [gkellogg]
- +1 to TallTed; use a polling tool rather than count email responses.
- 17:01:39 [TallTed]
- RRSAgent, draft minutes
- 17:01:40 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
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