16:59:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:59:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-aria-irc
16:59:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:59:33 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:59:59 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:00:00 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:00:00 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240606T130000/
17:00:00 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:00:00 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3ReuaQt
17:00:01 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/4bVxaJA
17:00:01 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
17:00:07 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:00:08 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:00:10 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Discussion tracking for ARIA Notification proposal https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957
17:00:13 <agendabot> agenda+ Old Issue Triage...
17:00:39 <ray-schwartz> ray-schwartz has joined #ARIA
17:01:35 <alisonmaher> alisonmaher has joined #aria
17:02:01 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
17:02:12 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
17:02:12 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
17:02:15 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:02:17 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
17:02:17 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #aria
17:02:20 <dmontalvo> scribe: Daniel
17:02:26 <dmontalvo> scribenick: dmontalvo
17:02:28 <alisonmaher> present+
17:02:28 <Adam_Page> present+
17:02:40 <aardrian> Present+
17:03:03 <pkra> present+
17:03:28 <ray-schwartz> present+
17:03:39 <ethanjv> ethanjv has joined #aria
17:04:00 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:04:00 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3ReuaQt -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:04:36 <dmontalvo> jamesn: ARIA 2236
17:05:22 <aaronlev> aaronlev has joined #aria
17:05:39 <dmontalvo> Sara: Headings within feeds. Headings could be months or years and then beneath that you could have the posts
17:05:43 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
17:05:47 <Francis_Storr> present+
17:05:53 <dmontalvo> aardrian: Do you mean the feed role?
17:06:31 <dmontalvo> Sarah: It would be hard for on-demand loading
17:07:11 <dmontalvo> jamesn: It seems overly restrictive to only allow articles in a feed
17:07:15 <jamesn> q?
17:07:28 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
17:07:44 <sarah> q+
17:07:54 <dmontalvo> Scott: Because content model is not defined, things like this are assumed to be invalid
17:08:33 <jamesn> ack sarah
17:08:50 <dmontalvo> ... We may need to take on the work of stating the specific roles that are not allowed, thus the others would be allowed.
17:09:09 <dmontalvo> Sarah: Maybe we need to create groups, make it more fine-grained
17:09:21 <dmontalvo> ... Also feeds can have arrow keyboard navigation within articles
17:09:50 <dmontalvo> ... I've tried to talk to screen reader vendors to trigger focused articles, especially fro browse mode
17:10:01 <dmontalvo> jamesn: That's a big ask, I'll agenda it though
17:10:13 <sarah> present+
17:10:15 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:10:15 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/4bVxaJA -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:11:11 <dmontalvo> Daniel: ARIA 2225
17:11:40 <dmontalvo> giacomo-petri: I put together a proposal for what we discussed last week
17:11:41 <StefanS> StefanS has joined #aria
17:12:11 <dmontalvo> ... I think this is a better place to put author responsibilities
17:12:13 <StefanS> present+
17:12:22 <dmontalvo> aardrian: Is it id reference processing what you mean?
17:12:27 <dmontalvo> giacomo-petri: Yes.
17:12:34 <dmontalvo> aardrian: Is this looking for reviewers?
17:12:38 <dmontalvo> giacomo-petri: Yes
17:12:56 <dmontalvo> ... Since ids are unique, that seems much like an author's responsibility
17:13:04 <dmontalvo> aardrian: I can review
17:13:41 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria
17:13:42 <dmontalvo> filippo-zorzi: I can
17:13:46 <scotto> present+
17:14:44 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:14:44 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:16:27 <dmontalvo> jamesn: Nothing new. Is this one from you Adam still needing review?
17:16:39 <dmontalvo> Adam_Page: It needs me to invert the test expectations
17:16:41 <BGaraventa> BGaraventa has joined #aria
17:16:43 <dmontalvo> zakim, close this item
17:16:43 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
17:16:44 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:16:44 <Zakim> 4. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
17:16:46 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:16:46 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:22 <dmontalvo> Rahim: I am still dealing with the whole business of "undefined"
17:17:38 <BGaraventa> present+ BGaraventa
17:17:41 <dmontalvo> ... Maybe the week after next
17:17:49 <dmontalvo> jamesn:  27th?
17:17:57 <dmontalvo> Rahim: Yes
17:18:08 <dmontalvo> jamesn: What specific issue I can put in there?
17:18:41 <dmontalvo> jamesn: No deep dive next week, we can potentially do another one on the 20th
17:18:45 <dmontalvo> zakim,take up next
17:18:45 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Discussion tracking for ARIA Notification proposal https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:18:46 <Rahim> deep dive issue: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2177
17:19:39 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:19:53 <dmontalvo> Doug: Deep dive recently. We did not have a lot of feedback. We have had some chatter in Microsoft around some issues
17:20:02 <aardrian> Q+
17:20:22 <dmontalvo> ... We may need to get the basic ARIA-notify out and then work on the problematic functionality based on how people starts to use it
17:20:55 <dmontalvo> jamesn: aardrian posted a lot of questions yesterday
17:21:08 <dmontalvo> Doug: Didn't have time to respond yet
17:21:26 <dmontalvo> jamesn: I need to have a look at this myself
17:21:45 <jamesn> ack aardrian
17:21:50 <dmontalvo> Dogu: Some issues are around interpreting what we currently have, and they come when implementing it
17:22:18 <dmontalvo> aardrian: I am not sure if I put them in the right place. Is that the meta issue to discuss?
17:22:25 <dmontalvo> Dogu: We can come back and comment there
17:22:34 <aardrian> q-
17:22:54 <jamesn> q?
17:22:58 <Rahim> present+
17:23:00 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
17:23:00 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Old Issue Triage... -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:24:06 <dmontalvo> jamesn: ARIA 651
17:24:28 <dmontalvo> pkra: This sounds like a CSS-AAM discussion
17:25:35 <dmontalvo> Skott: Transfer that to HTML-AAM
17:26:22 <dmontalvo> jamesn: Since we don't have MathML yet, can we close #660?
17:26:51 <dmontalvo> Skott: Do we need a MathML ARIA?
17:27:04 <dmontalvo> jamesn: We will never have a complete Math representation in ARIA
17:27:22 <dmontalvo> Sythia: An OS platforms also may not have that
17:28:48 <dmontalvo> Pkra: We started a CG, but that went nowhere. I'd close this
17:29:14 <dmontalvo> jamesn: @@@ issue number
17:29:22 <dmontalvo> ... Is this something ARIA-notify can deal with?
17:29:58 <dmontalvo> ... Any proposals on how to deal with this?
17:30:22 <dmontalvo> Pkra: It feels like an unsolvable problem. Sometimes you may want the same text replaced and repeated and sometimes not
17:30:52 <dmontalvo> jamesn: Should we have something along the lines of repeating it?
17:31:07 <dmontalvo> Adam_Page: I can always delete the text and readd it as an author
17:31:19 <dmontalvo> Skott: That's what I've told people to do
17:31:39 <dmontalvo> jamesn: Some browsers you have to do it, some you don't
17:31:52 <dmontalvo> aardrian: Not so sure it's a big concern here
17:32:08 <dmontalvo> jamesn: Should we put it in the authoring practice in the upcoming live regions section?
17:32:16 <dmontalvo> Skott: We should not assume this is how it still works
17:33:09 <dmontalvo> Skott: One of us could test this and verify if it's still an issue
17:33:19 <dmontalvo> ... And then we could send this to APG for author guidance
17:33:28 <dmontalvo> jamesn: The spec should probably say what happens
17:33:36 <dmontalvo> Skott: We'd be saying what AT does
17:33:54 <dmontalvo> jamesn: No, just what browsers should do with sending the events
17:34:18 <dmontalvo> aardrian: I can test it
17:34:53 <dmontalvo> Jamesn: 683
17:35:05 <dmontalvo> ... I totally agree with Steve
17:35:24 <dmontalvo> Skot: Wasn't there a new issue?
17:35:58 <dmontalvo> jamesn: I think we do have a problem here, but we may want to close some of them
17:36:36 <dmontalvo> Skott: I'll take a look through the issues and choose one that'd be the primary issue for this, link the related ones and close them
17:36:45 <dmontalvo> jamesn: Thank you so much Skott
17:36:46 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:37:50 <aaronlev> aria-checked also allows mixed
17:37:56 <dmontalvo> Jamesn: Issue about Tristate toggle
17:38:01 <dmontalvo> ... Do we have use cases?
17:38:35 <dmontalvo> Siri: Yes. I raised similar issues before, mainly for expanded and collapsed which won't be completely press or unpress
17:39:12 <dmontalvo> Adrian: Turning plane mode on and then activating wifi is another use case
17:39:44 <dmontalvo> Rahim: Pressing a button changes the visible label and thus the accessible name, not sure if they are using aria-label
17:40:34 <siri> Present+
17:40:36 <dmontalvo> Adrian: aria-pressed is check or uncheck, and also it canbe put into anoter things because of other UI elements
17:41:28 <dmontalvo> jamesn: When you press it you can only put it into true or false, but it can become mixed by something else
17:41:59 <dmontalvo> Matt: I don't see a reason for such a limitation
17:42:38 <dmontalvo> ... If someone is using a toggle button instead of a check box for a tristate then I would
17:42:47 <dmontalvo> ... It seems weird that there is inconsistency amongst them
17:43:25 <dmontalvo> jamesn: There are UI elements where you have to toggle through several elements
17:43:47 <dmontalvo> Matt: They don't generate a state event
17:44:46 <Rahim> q+
17:44:54 <dmontalvo> Adrian: I'd pause here. ome of us didn't know about the third state
17:45:18 <dmontalvo> Rahim: Is there desire to have parity with aria-checked and aria-pressed?
17:46:00 <dmontalvo> jamesn: Consider a token role for next version
17:46:10 <dmontalvo> ... We've already put an Open UI lbel for this
17:46:37 <dmontalvo> Matt: I think this will help and reduce the need for things like the list view
17:47:02 <dmontalvo> Skott: I'd suggest we close it. I don't think ARIA should create a new role for ssomething that does not yet exist in HTML
17:47:29 <dmontalvo> ... We should push this through to Open UI or HTML and see if that gets traction there
17:47:38 <dmontalvo> Matt: +1
17:47:40 <StefanS> -1
17:47:46 <dmontalvo> Adrian: +2
17:47:59 <dmontalvo> jamesn: Closing. This should be first in HTML
17:48:37 <aaronlev> I believe you can set input.indeterminate=true on <input type=checked>
17:48:57 <dmontalvo> Stephan: I'd be fine this interesting if we could make this resemble a list. These are objects typically, they can be deleted
17:49:23 <aaronlev> https://css-tricks.com/indeterminate-checkboxes/
17:49:24 <dmontalvo> ... There should be patterns to show how to treat it
17:49:43 <aaronlev> there's a css pseudo class for it
17:49:57 <dmontalvo> Skott: Someone can step up and provide it
17:51:24 <dmontalvo> Matt: We have high priority things in APG that we need to do first. Please join APG and contribute code
17:52:28 <dmontalvo> Topic: 2233 Presentational roles conflict resolution
17:53:14 <dmontalvo> giacomo-petri: Old issue was related to implicit presentational role. This one is about inherited presentational role
17:53:41 <dmontalvo> ... Table with role presentation that contains data with aria-description, it is not clear from the definition id the td should be exposed as a table data or as a generic element
17:54:02 <dmontalvo> ... Looking at how browsers expose it, they are exposing it as a generic element. Maybe it is not clear enough from the definition
17:54:15 <jamesn> q+
17:54:25 <Rahim> q-
17:54:25 <dmontalvo> Matt; If the global property causes the table role to be revealed as table, it removes role presentation because it's a global property
17:54:46 <dmontalvo> giacomo-petri: Are we expecting the td gets exposed as table data or as generic
17:54:52 <jamesn> qq+ scott
17:55:11 <jamesn> ack scott
17:55:11 <Zakim> scott, you wanted to react to aardrian
17:56:00 <dmontalvo> Skott: Because of the table being role presentation, all its children are generic. But aria-descciption may make it exposed as table data
17:56:06 <dmontalvo> ... It may need some clarification here
17:56:34 <dmontalvo> ... If aria-description was placed together with a table role then we would have presentational role conflict resolution
17:56:39 <dmontalvo> giacomo-petri:  Agree.
17:56:50 <jamesn> ack me
17:56:51 <dmontalvo> jamesn: Me too. Are browsers doing the same thing?
17:57:03 <dmontalvo> giacomo-petri: Chrome Firefox and Safari exposes it as generic
17:57:24 <dmontalvo> jamesn: If that is the case we could create a PR with that
17:57:40 <dmontalvo> Matt: I thought description is not allower on generic
17:57:54 <dmontalvo> Skott: It's not prohibited right now
17:58:09 <dmontalvo> ... The title attribute can be put in generic
17:58:33 <dmontalvo> giacomo-petri: I can create the PR
17:58:38 <dmontalvo> Skott; Put me on as a reviewer
17:58:47 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:58:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-aria-minutes.html dmontalvo
17:59:05 <dmontalvo> zakim, end meeting
17:59:05 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been giacomo-petri, Daniel, alisonmaher, Adam_Page, aardrian, pkra, ray-schwartz, Francis_Storr, sarah, StefanS, scotto, BGaraventa, Rahim, siri
17:59:08 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:59:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:59:16 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, dmontalvo; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:59:16 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria