IRC log of aria on 2024-06-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:59:28 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-aria-irc
16:59:32 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:59:33 [Zakim]
Meeting: ARIA WG
16:59:59 [jamesn]
agendabot, find agenda
17:00:00 [agendabot]
jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:00:00 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240606T130000/
17:00:00 [agendabot]
clear agenda
17:00:00 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3ReuaQt
17:00:01 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/4bVxaJA
17:00:01 [Adam_Page]
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17:00:07 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:00:08 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:00:10 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Discussion tracking for ARIA Notification proposal https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957
17:00:13 [agendabot]
agenda+ Old Issue Triage...
17:00:39 [ray-schwartz]
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17:01:35 [alisonmaher]
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17:02:01 [pkra]
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17:02:12 [giacomo-petri]
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17:02:12 [jamesn]
chair: JamesNurthen
17:02:15 [giacomo-petri]
present+
17:02:17 [dmontalvo]
present+ Daniel
17:02:17 [aardrian]
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17:02:20 [dmontalvo]
scribe: Daniel
17:02:26 [dmontalvo]
scribenick: dmontalvo
17:02:28 [alisonmaher]
present+
17:02:28 [Adam_Page]
present+
17:02:40 [aardrian]
Present+
17:03:03 [pkra]
present+
17:03:28 [ray-schwartz]
present+
17:03:39 [ethanjv]
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17:04:00 [dmontalvo]
zakim, take up next
17:04:00 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3ReuaQt -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:04:36 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: ARIA 2236
17:05:22 [aaronlev]
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17:05:39 [dmontalvo]
Sara: Headings within feeds. Headings could be months or years and then beneath that you could have the posts
17:05:43 [Francis_Storr]
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17:05:47 [Francis_Storr]
present+
17:05:53 [dmontalvo]
aardrian: Do you mean the feed role?
17:06:31 [dmontalvo]
Sarah: It would be hard for on-demand loading
17:07:11 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: It seems overly restrictive to only allow articles in a feed
17:07:15 [jamesn]
q?
17:07:28 [sarah]
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17:07:44 [sarah]
q+
17:07:54 [dmontalvo]
Scott: Because content model is not defined, things like this are assumed to be invalid
17:08:33 [jamesn]
ack sarah
17:08:50 [dmontalvo]
... We may need to take on the work of stating the specific roles that are not allowed, thus the others would be allowed.
17:09:09 [dmontalvo]
Sarah: Maybe we need to create groups, make it more fine-grained
17:09:21 [dmontalvo]
... Also feeds can have arrow keyboard navigation within articles
17:09:50 [dmontalvo]
... I've tried to talk to screen reader vendors to trigger focused articles, especially fro browse mode
17:10:01 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: That's a big ask, I'll agenda it though
17:10:13 [sarah]
present+
17:10:15 [dmontalvo]
zakim, take up next
17:10:15 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/4bVxaJA -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:11:11 [dmontalvo]
Daniel: ARIA 2225
17:11:40 [dmontalvo]
giacomo-petri: I put together a proposal for what we discussed last week
17:11:41 [StefanS]
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17:12:11 [dmontalvo]
... I think this is a better place to put author responsibilities
17:12:13 [StefanS]
present+
17:12:22 [dmontalvo]
aardrian: Is it id reference processing what you mean?
17:12:27 [dmontalvo]
giacomo-petri: Yes.
17:12:34 [dmontalvo]
aardrian: Is this looking for reviewers?
17:12:38 [dmontalvo]
giacomo-petri: Yes
17:12:56 [dmontalvo]
... Since ids are unique, that seems much like an author's responsibility
17:13:04 [dmontalvo]
aardrian: I can review
17:13:41 [scotto]
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17:13:42 [dmontalvo]
filippo-zorzi: I can
17:13:46 [scotto]
present+
17:14:44 [dmontalvo]
zakim, take up next
17:14:44 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:16:27 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: Nothing new. Is this one from you Adam still needing review?
17:16:39 [dmontalvo]
Adam_Page: It needs me to invert the test expectations
17:16:41 [BGaraventa]
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17:16:43 [dmontalvo]
zakim, close this item
17:16:43 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
17:16:44 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:16:44 [Zakim]
4. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
17:16:46 [dmontalvo]
zakim, take up next
17:16:46 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:22 [dmontalvo]
Rahim: I am still dealing with the whole business of "undefined"
17:17:38 [BGaraventa]
present+ BGaraventa
17:17:41 [dmontalvo]
... Maybe the week after next
17:17:49 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: 27th?
17:17:57 [dmontalvo]
Rahim: Yes
17:18:08 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: What specific issue I can put in there?
17:18:41 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: No deep dive next week, we can potentially do another one on the 20th
17:18:45 [dmontalvo]
zakim,take up next
17:18:45 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- -> Discussion tracking for ARIA Notification proposal https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/1957 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:18:46 [Rahim]
deep dive issue: https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2177
17:19:39 [cyns]
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17:19:53 [dmontalvo]
Doug: Deep dive recently. We did not have a lot of feedback. We have had some chatter in Microsoft around some issues
17:20:02 [aardrian]
Q+
17:20:22 [dmontalvo]
... We may need to get the basic ARIA-notify out and then work on the problematic functionality based on how people starts to use it
17:20:55 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: aardrian posted a lot of questions yesterday
17:21:08 [dmontalvo]
Doug: Didn't have time to respond yet
17:21:26 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: I need to have a look at this myself
17:21:45 [jamesn]
ack aardrian
17:21:50 [dmontalvo]
Dogu: Some issues are around interpreting what we currently have, and they come when implementing it
17:22:18 [dmontalvo]
aardrian: I am not sure if I put them in the right place. Is that the meta issue to discuss?
17:22:25 [dmontalvo]
Dogu: We can come back and comment there
17:22:34 [aardrian]
q-
17:22:54 [jamesn]
q?
17:22:58 [Rahim]
present+
17:23:00 [dmontalvo]
zakim, take up next
17:23:00 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- Old Issue Triage... -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:24:06 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: ARIA 651
17:24:28 [dmontalvo]
pkra: This sounds like a CSS-AAM discussion
17:25:35 [dmontalvo]
Skott: Transfer that to HTML-AAM
17:26:22 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: Since we don't have MathML yet, can we close #660?
17:26:51 [dmontalvo]
Skott: Do we need a MathML ARIA?
17:27:04 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: We will never have a complete Math representation in ARIA
17:27:22 [dmontalvo]
Sythia: An OS platforms also may not have that
17:28:48 [dmontalvo]
Pkra: We started a CG, but that went nowhere. I'd close this
17:29:14 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: @@@ issue number
17:29:22 [dmontalvo]
... Is this something ARIA-notify can deal with?
17:29:58 [dmontalvo]
... Any proposals on how to deal with this?
17:30:22 [dmontalvo]
Pkra: It feels like an unsolvable problem. Sometimes you may want the same text replaced and repeated and sometimes not
17:30:52 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: Should we have something along the lines of repeating it?
17:31:07 [dmontalvo]
Adam_Page: I can always delete the text and readd it as an author
17:31:19 [dmontalvo]
Skott: That's what I've told people to do
17:31:39 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: Some browsers you have to do it, some you don't
17:31:52 [dmontalvo]
aardrian: Not so sure it's a big concern here
17:32:08 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: Should we put it in the authoring practice in the upcoming live regions section?
17:32:16 [dmontalvo]
Skott: We should not assume this is how it still works
17:33:09 [dmontalvo]
Skott: One of us could test this and verify if it's still an issue
17:33:19 [dmontalvo]
... And then we could send this to APG for author guidance
17:33:28 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: The spec should probably say what happens
17:33:36 [dmontalvo]
Skott: We'd be saying what AT does
17:33:54 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: No, just what browsers should do with sending the events
17:34:18 [dmontalvo]
aardrian: I can test it
17:34:53 [dmontalvo]
Jamesn: 683
17:35:05 [dmontalvo]
... I totally agree with Steve
17:35:24 [dmontalvo]
Skot: Wasn't there a new issue?
17:35:58 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: I think we do have a problem here, but we may want to close some of them
17:36:36 [dmontalvo]
Skott: I'll take a look through the issues and choose one that'd be the primary issue for this, link the related ones and close them
17:36:45 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: Thank you so much Skott
17:36:46 [siri]
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17:37:50 [aaronlev]
aria-checked also allows mixed
17:37:56 [dmontalvo]
Jamesn: Issue about Tristate toggle
17:38:01 [dmontalvo]
... Do we have use cases?
17:38:35 [dmontalvo]
Siri: Yes. I raised similar issues before, mainly for expanded and collapsed which won't be completely press or unpress
17:39:12 [dmontalvo]
Adrian: Turning plane mode on and then activating wifi is another use case
17:39:44 [dmontalvo]
Rahim: Pressing a button changes the visible label and thus the accessible name, not sure if they are using aria-label
17:40:34 [siri]
Present+
17:40:36 [dmontalvo]
Adrian: aria-pressed is check or uncheck, and also it canbe put into anoter things because of other UI elements
17:41:28 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: When you press it you can only put it into true or false, but it can become mixed by something else
17:41:59 [dmontalvo]
Matt: I don't see a reason for such a limitation
17:42:38 [dmontalvo]
... If someone is using a toggle button instead of a check box for a tristate then I would
17:42:47 [dmontalvo]
... It seems weird that there is inconsistency amongst them
17:43:25 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: There are UI elements where you have to toggle through several elements
17:43:47 [dmontalvo]
Matt: They don't generate a state event
17:44:46 [Rahim]
q+
17:44:54 [dmontalvo]
Adrian: I'd pause here. ome of us didn't know about the third state
17:45:18 [dmontalvo]
Rahim: Is there desire to have parity with aria-checked and aria-pressed?
17:46:00 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: Consider a token role for next version
17:46:10 [dmontalvo]
... We've already put an Open UI lbel for this
17:46:37 [dmontalvo]
Matt: I think this will help and reduce the need for things like the list view
17:47:02 [dmontalvo]
Skott: I'd suggest we close it. I don't think ARIA should create a new role for ssomething that does not yet exist in HTML
17:47:29 [dmontalvo]
... We should push this through to Open UI or HTML and see if that gets traction there
17:47:38 [dmontalvo]
Matt: +1
17:47:40 [StefanS]
-1
17:47:46 [dmontalvo]
Adrian: +2
17:47:59 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: Closing. This should be first in HTML
17:48:37 [aaronlev]
I believe you can set input.indeterminate=true on <input type=checked>
17:48:57 [dmontalvo]
Stephan: I'd be fine this interesting if we could make this resemble a list. These are objects typically, they can be deleted
17:49:23 [aaronlev]
https://css-tricks.com/indeterminate-checkboxes/
17:49:24 [dmontalvo]
... There should be patterns to show how to treat it
17:49:43 [aaronlev]
there's a css pseudo class for it
17:49:57 [dmontalvo]
Skott: Someone can step up and provide it
17:51:24 [dmontalvo]
Matt: We have high priority things in APG that we need to do first. Please join APG and contribute code
17:52:28 [dmontalvo]
Topic: 2233 Presentational roles conflict resolution
17:53:14 [dmontalvo]
giacomo-petri: Old issue was related to implicit presentational role. This one is about inherited presentational role
17:53:41 [dmontalvo]
... Table with role presentation that contains data with aria-description, it is not clear from the definition id the td should be exposed as a table data or as a generic element
17:54:02 [dmontalvo]
... Looking at how browsers expose it, they are exposing it as a generic element. Maybe it is not clear enough from the definition
17:54:15 [jamesn]
q+
17:54:25 [Rahim]
q-
17:54:25 [dmontalvo]
Matt; If the global property causes the table role to be revealed as table, it removes role presentation because it's a global property
17:54:46 [dmontalvo]
giacomo-petri: Are we expecting the td gets exposed as table data or as generic
17:54:52 [jamesn]
qq+ scott
17:55:11 [jamesn]
ack scott
17:55:11 [Zakim]
scott, you wanted to react to aardrian
17:56:00 [dmontalvo]
Skott: Because of the table being role presentation, all its children are generic. But aria-descciption may make it exposed as table data
17:56:06 [dmontalvo]
... It may need some clarification here
17:56:34 [dmontalvo]
... If aria-description was placed together with a table role then we would have presentational role conflict resolution
17:56:39 [dmontalvo]
giacomo-petri: Agree.
17:56:50 [jamesn]
ack me
17:56:51 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: Me too. Are browsers doing the same thing?
17:57:03 [dmontalvo]
giacomo-petri: Chrome Firefox and Safari exposes it as generic
17:57:24 [dmontalvo]
jamesn: If that is the case we could create a PR with that
17:57:40 [dmontalvo]
Matt: I thought description is not allower on generic
17:57:54 [dmontalvo]
Skott: It's not prohibited right now
17:58:09 [dmontalvo]
... The title attribute can be put in generic
17:58:33 [dmontalvo]
giacomo-petri: I can create the PR
17:58:38 [dmontalvo]
Skott; Put me on as a reviewer
17:58:47 [dmontalvo]
rrsagent, draft minutes
17:58:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-aria-minutes.html dmontalvo
17:59:05 [dmontalvo]
zakim, end meeting
17:59:05 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been giacomo-petri, Daniel, alisonmaher, Adam_Page, aardrian, pkra, ray-schwartz, Francis_Storr, sarah, StefanS, scotto, BGaraventa, Rahim, siri
17:59:08 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:59:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/06-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:59:16 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, dmontalvo; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
17:59:16 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria