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11:45:16 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-wot-irc
11:45:16 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG/IG
11:45:40 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf#5_June_2024
11:53:32 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura
11:59:58 <kaz> chair: Sebastian
12:00:20 <kaz> present+ Mahda_Noura
12:01:08 <kaz> present+ Kunihiko_Toumura
12:01:18 <luca_barbato> luca_barbato has joined #wot
12:01:25 <kaz> regrets+ Koster
12:01:38 <ktoumura> ktoumura has joined #wot
12:01:48 <kaz> present+ Michael_McCool, Sebastian_Kaebisch, Luca_Barbato
12:02:31 <sebastian> sebastian has joined #wot
12:03:02 <kaz> present+ Ben_Francis, Ege_Korkan
12:03:08 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
12:03:12 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:03:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:03:21 <mahda> mahda has joined #wot
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12:04:21 <mahda> present+ Mahda_Noura
12:04:28 <kaz> scribenick: McCool
12:04:57 <kaz> scribe+
12:05:02 <kaz> topic: Logistics
12:05:11 <Tomo> Tomo has joined #wot
12:05:12 <kaz> sk: ordinary topics first within 30 mins
12:05:27 <kaz> ... then Profile discussion using the remaining 30 mins
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12:05:36 <kaz> present+ Daniel_Peintner
12:05:37 <McCool> seb: today would like to allocate some time to discuss Profile; so will go through the other items quickly
12:05:53 <kaz> i/today/scribenick: McCool/
12:06:04 <McCool> s/seb:/sk:/
12:06:22 <kaz> q?
12:06:40 <McCool> topic: Guests
12:07:06 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
12:07:18 <kaz> q+
12:07:20 <McCool> sk: no guests, have two pending IE applications; working on scheduling a presentation
12:07:45 <McCool> kaz: one person is working on a presentation on work and expected contributions
12:07:53 <McCool> ... so now we are discussing when he can present
12:07:54 <kaz> q-
12:07:57 <McCool> topic: minutes
12:08:08 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2024/05/29-wot-minutes.html May-29
12:08:10 <McCool> sk: as usual, welcome to review in advance
12:08:21 <McCool> ... reviewed in chairs call, did not see any issues
12:08:31 <McCool> ... suggest we approve; any objections?
12:08:41 <McCool> ... hearing no objections, approved.
12:08:53 <McCool> topic: quick items
12:09:10 <kaz> q+
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12:09:20 <kaz> q-
12:09:29 <dezell> present+ David_Ezell
12:09:30 <kaz> q+
12:09:38 <McCool> sk: draft for charter of Digital Twins for Smart Cities IG has been distributed to AC reps, ping your AC reps please; time until beginning of July
12:10:09 <McCool> s/beginning of July/July 3/
12:10:16 <McCool> topic: Notices
12:10:41 <McCool> sk: good news from OPC UA, released last week a companion spec, 10100-1, WoT Connectivity
12:10:45 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:10:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:11:16 <McCool> sk: it is using the latest TD spec, 1.1
12:11:33 <kaz> q+
12:11:38 <McCool> ... intention of this spec is to use WoT TDs for onboarding scenarios
12:12:19 <McCool> ... may have devices that are not OPC UA based, this allows an OPC UA system to import TDs and use them to onboard devices
12:12:39 <McCool> q+
12:12:48 <kaz> ack k
12:12:57 <McCool> kaz: at some point we should talk about potential impact to other specs, e.g scripting
12:13:22 <McCool> sk: was some plan discussed about official OPC UA binding; we have a draft but it is not yet official
12:13:45 <McCool> ... we have discussed options for this in the past
12:13:48 <kaz> s/to other sp/to our sp/
12:14:06 <kaz> s/e.g scripting/e.g scripting and binding templates/
12:14:30 <McCool> ... discussed with W3M, but it was decided that OPC UA should work on it themselves due to need for conformance testing
12:15:07 <McCool> ... however, we should collaborate with them to ensure that things work together
12:15:26 <McCool> kaz: my point is rather procedural - let's discuss on liaison mailing list
12:16:34 <kaz> s/let's discuss on liaison mailing list/should send updates to the liaison mailing list too. also should have how to deal with WoT/OPC-UA binding using the Binding Templates Registry at some point later/
12:17:13 <kaz> q+
12:17:19 <McCool> mm: there may also be impact on profiles, e.g. if the spec has certain requirements for onboarding to be successful, such as mandatory ids, etc.
12:17:47 <McCool> mm: also, is there a spec for OPC UA devices presenting TDs?
12:18:01 <kaz> ack mc
12:18:40 <McCool> sk: not yet, that needs a complete binding
12:18:59 <kaz> q
12:19:00 <McCool> kaz: let's discuss in chairs call details and followup
12:19:02 <kaz> q-
12:19:05 <McCool> topic: meetups
12:19:13 <Ege> q+
12:19:15 <McCool> sk: any news?  If not, will skip
12:20:01 <McCool> ege: added video and slides links for last WoT CG meetup - see agenda
12:20:06 <kaz> -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtJ260RuiWY Video link
12:20:14 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-cg/pull/159 slides
12:20:35 <McCool> sk: any news on WoT JP CG?
12:20:39 <kaz> q- Ege
12:20:41 <McCool> mz: nothing new
12:20:44 <McCool> topic: errata
12:20:55 <Ege> q+
12:20:58 <McCool> sk: there is a PR we should look at, and ask ege for a summary
12:21:07 <kaz> i/If not/subtopic: WoT CG/
12:21:20 <kaz> i/any news on/subtopic: WoT JP CG/
12:21:21 <McCool> ege: for all REC-track documents there is a PR
12:21:46 <McCool> ... we decided to do this manually, so these RECs disable the automatic script
12:21:50 <McCool> q+
12:22:04 <kaz> i|for all|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/pull/2023 wot-thing-description PR 2023 - Fixes to Errata Documents|
12:22:08 <kaz> ack ege
12:22:24 <kaz> q+
12:22:48 <McCool> mm: since no discovery or arch meetings right now, would like to suggest we have a resolution in this call to merge those PRs
12:23:07 <kaz> ack m
12:23:10 <kaz> ack k
12:24:15 <McCool> mm: as for policy proposal for errata, we can merge PR since it only goes into policy directory, but then we need a resolution to make it an actual policy
12:24:30 <McCool> sk: other PRs are just fixes to scripts, right?
12:25:51 <kaz> i|as for|kaz: TD TF can work on TD spec Errata, but Architecture and Discovery do need discussion during the main call as McCool mentioned. Also this is related to the whole WG policy.|
12:25:55 <McCool> mm: suggest we have a resolution to merge all four PRs to make it official
12:26:03 <kaz> i|kaz:|scribenick: kaz|
12:26:14 <kaz> i|as for|scribenick: McCool|
12:26:45 <sebastian> proposal: the group agrees on to merge the PRs #2024 of the TD repo, #948 in the Architecture repo, and #547 in the Discovery repo.
12:27:00 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-architecture/pull/946 wot-architecture PR 946 - Fixes to Errata Documents|
12:27:10 <kaz> s/Documents|/Documents/
12:27:21 <sebastian> resolution: the group agrees on to merge the PRs #2024 of the TD repo, #948 in the Architecture repo, and #547 in the Discovery repo.
12:27:43 <kaz> i|reso|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/pull/547 wot-discovery PR 547 - Fixes to Errata Documents|
12:27:48 <McCool> sk: (merges above PRs)
12:28:11 <kaz> q+
12:28:26 <Ege> q+
12:29:13 <kaz> s/2024/2023/
12:29:13 <kaz> s/2024/2023/
12:29:23 <kaz> ack k
12:30:09 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot/pull/1191 wot PR 1191 - Errata Management Policy Proposal (putting the proposal to the proposal folder)
12:30:32 <kaz> s/proposal fo/proposals fo/
12:30:41 <kaz> ack e
12:30:50 <McCool> mm: propose that we do a call for resolution to make this an official policy, one week from now
12:31:20 <McCool> sk: ok, let's do that , ege if you can make a PR to move to the policy directory, final comments can go there
12:31:27 <kaz> (meaning approving the proposed policy and install it under "policies" folder)
12:31:50 <Tomo> q+
12:32:08 <McCool> topic: schedule
12:32:09 <kaz> topic: Meeting Schedule Changes
12:32:20 <kaz> s/topic: Meeting Schedule Changes//
12:32:21 <Ege> q+
12:32:38 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf#Holidays_and_Upcoming_Events Holidays and Events
12:32:46 <McCool> sk: Kaz unavailable July 12-13, impacts Use Case, Main, and TD calls
12:33:03 <McCool> mm: suggest cancel main call on June 12-13
12:33:03 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:33:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:33:11 <McCool> s/July 12/June 12/
12:33:37 <McCool> mz: also cancel Use Case call June 12
12:33:52 <McCool> sk: cancel TD calls?
12:34:13 <McCool> ege: ok with cancelling TD call, but suggest we have the "tooling" call
12:34:27 <kaz> s/on June 12-13/on June 12/
12:34:33 <McCool> ... it's not an official WG call
12:34:38 <kaz> q?
12:34:41 <Tomo> q-
12:35:17 <McCool> sk: (updates list of cancellations in wiki)
12:35:38 <McCool> topic: F2F Planning
12:36:02 <McCool> sk: Nov 27 date and location (Munich) for WoT@Industry have been confirmed
12:36:07 <kaz> i|F2F|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Main_WoT_WebConf#Cancellations_and_Schedule_Updates Cancellations|
12:36:16 <McCool> sk: would like to plan "WoT Week" around that
12:36:41 <kaz> i|Nov 27|subtopic: November|
12:36:53 <McCool> ... WoT@Industry would be an "Open Day", then we would add plugfests and WG meetings
12:37:01 <kaz> i|Nov 27|-> https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/Wiki_for_WoT_Week_2024_planning November WoT Week wiki|
12:37:09 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:37:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:37:16 <McCool> ... first three days would be hosted by Siemens, last two would be at Microsoft
12:37:32 <McCool> ... plugfest 2 days, Open Day, then WG F2F
12:37:54 <McCool> ... there will also be a party, sponsored by Siemens, on the night of the OpenDay
12:38:54 <McCool> sk: would be useful to fill out the attendance list further, so if people can check their ability to travel
12:39:19 <McCool> ... we have a contract with the hotel for the OpenDay but are looking into extending it for the week
12:39:28 <McCool> s/the hotel/a hotel/
12:39:46 <kaz> q+
12:39:49 <McCool> sk: kaz, any news on TPAC?
12:40:02 <Ege> ack e
12:40:03 <kaz> ack e
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12:40:26 <McCool> kaz: TPAC in Sept in Anaheim; joint meeting and WoT meeting allocated
12:40:41 <McCool> ... encouraged to skim the scheduled
12:40:49 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2024/05/tpac2024-schedule-20240523.html Draft meeting scheule
12:41:07 <McCool> mm: my understanding is that we have no joint calls with WoT scheduled
12:42:03 <McCool> kaz: actually... they were automatically added when we mentioned
12:42:17 <McCool> mm: then we should reach to them and actually have an agenda...
12:43:18 <McCool> kaz: feedback is June 10, would be good to do before next chair's call
12:43:37 <kaz> s/call/call. let's talk about that on the team-wot mailing list/
12:43:50 <McCool> topic: profiles
12:44:10 <McCool> sk: have been several emails exchanged, would like to ask ben to summarize discussion
12:44:44 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2024/06/04-wot-profile-minutes.html June 4 WoT Profile Minutes
12:44:47 <McCool> ben: general high-level agreement to make profiles and binding templates closer together
12:44:58 <McCool> ... but unclear what to do with the current draft
12:45:23 <McCool> ... some limitations right now, not possible to create a profile that guarantees interop
12:45:45 <McCool> ... current spec works around this by defining behaviour e.g. for actions
12:46:12 <McCool> ... high-level; question that needs to be answer whether the profiles should define bindings
12:46:22 <McCool> ... propose two options:
12:46:47 <McCool> ... option 1, agree that profile can define prescriptive bindings
12:47:15 <McCool> ... in other words, proceed with current document on REC
12:47:55 <McCool> ... option 2: only add restrictions to other specs, not new bindings; then current spec would become a Note and we would start on a new track.
12:47:58 <kaz> i|propose two|-> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-wot-wg/2024May/0009.html Ben's email on May 29|
12:48:02 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:48:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-wot-minutes.html kaz
12:48:10 <sebastian> q?
12:48:10 <McCool> ... currently we are blocked from making progress until this is decided.
12:48:15 <kaz> q-
12:48:24 <kaz> q+
12:48:43 <McCool> sk: as mentioned in email, a little concerned about first sentence of option 1.
12:48:58 <sebastian> Option 1
12:48:58 <sebastian> Agree as a Working Group that for Profiles 1.0 profile specifications are allowed to define protocol bindings that go beyond what can currently be described with binding templates, as a more prescriptive but unambiguous option to guarantee interoperability between greenfield implementations. Publish a Candidate Recommendation, publicise a request
12:48:58 <sebastian> for implementations, and if there are sufficient implementations then proceed to Proposed Recommendation.
12:49:04 <sebastian> Option 2
12:49:04 <sebastian> Decide now that profiles must only constrain what is already possible with binding templates in TD 1.1, discontinue the approach taken in WoT Profiles 1.0, publish the current text as a Working Group Note and start work on a Profiles 2.0 specification which takes a different approach.
12:49:54 <McCool> sk: little concerned that option 1 weakens the binding templates if other docs are creating binding rules; it makes it unclear where to find information about behavior.
12:50:07 <McCool> q+
12:50:32 <kaz> q- later
12:50:34 <McCool> sk: makes it clearer to the developer is there is a single place to look
12:51:22 <McCool> ben: agree option 1 is messy; have had to work around limitations in binding template; want to improve in 2.0.
12:52:04 <McCool> ... my understanding is that you prefer option 2.   But want to confirm it is necessary, since it would require a lot of rework in the short term.
12:52:41 <McCool> ... agree there is a lot of good work in the draft, so I agree it should at least be a Note.
12:53:15 <McCool> ... would rather see a Rec that is synchronized.
12:54:04 <McCool> ben: want to clarify whether there are other members besides Siemens that prefer option 2.   Although we do want consensus.  Would Siemens object formally to option 1?
12:54:25 <McCool> sk: cannot really decide yet; need to look at input from the entire group.
12:54:34 <dape> q+
12:54:37 <luca_barbato> q+
12:56:49 <McCool> mm: to clarify, we do intend to refactor the specs either way, it's just a question of the status of the documents in the meantime.  It may take longer to get through the REC process than the refactoring would take.
12:57:33 <McCool> kaz: currently option 1 and 2 mix two points; content and style.  My understanding is that no-one objects to publishing as a REC as long as the content is correct.
12:57:58 <McCool> ... right now we are on 2.0 specs, and reorganizing other docs, e.g. refactoring binding templates into TD spec.
12:58:28 <McCool> ... it would be helpful to clarify the relationships between binding and profiles.
12:58:39 <McCool> q?
12:58:42 <kaz> ack m
12:58:43 <kaz> ack k
12:59:38 <McCool> dape: it's not that we are against profiles, etc. but IMO having it as REC has implications - means strong support from entire group.  Right now I don't see that consensus.
13:00:22 <McCool> ... so I would lean towards option 2.
13:00:27 <kaz> ack d
13:00:39 <kaz> ack l
13:01:07 <McCool> lb: what is in profile is meant to solve the problem of having useful greenfield devices
13:01:27 <McCool> ... so if we don't publish it, will leave a gap for about 2yrs
13:01:41 <sebastian> sorry, I need to leave.
13:01:54 <kaz> (Sebastian leaves)
13:02:11 <McCool> ... what we have in Profile 1 is something that is useful for early adopters.
13:02:29 <kaz> scribe+
13:02:42 <kaz> mm: wrap up the comments and close the meeting
13:02:54 <kaz> ... any final comments?
13:03:05 <kaz> lb: rather would have profile as REC
13:03:23 <kaz> ... we have the force for interoperability
13:03:55 <kaz> ... if somebody wants to have a WoT greenfield device that person doesn't need to find the way by themselves
13:04:08 <kaz> mm: there is an email thread about this topic
13:04:25 <kaz> ... but would be better to have a GitHub Issue to have broader discussion
13:04:30 <kaz> ... what do you think?
13:04:39 <dape> q+
13:04:46 <kaz> bf: just changing the media of discussion would not be useful...
13:05:03 <kaz> mm: let's continue the discussion on the email thread then
13:05:06 <kaz> ack d
13:05:11 <kaz> q+
13:05:23 <kaz> dp: maybe we need some kind of vote
13:05:31 <kaz> mm: need to clarify pros/cons before voting
13:05:49 <kaz> ... unfortunately, the next main call is cancelled
13:05:58 <kaz> ... but we can talk about this again in 2 weeks
13:06:07 <luca_barbato> luca_barbato has joined #wot
13:06:08 <kaz> ... good to think about the schedule
13:06:33 <kaz> kaz: agree
13:06:51 <kaz> ... we should have another dedicated discussion
13:07:01 <kaz> lb: btw, what about my Editor status?
13:07:03 <kaz> q-
13:07:04 <kaz> q+
13:07:47 <McCool> proposal: support making Luca Barbato provisional editor of the Profiles TF
13:08:08 <McCool> resolution: support making Luca Barbato provisional editor of the Profiles TF
13:08:29 <Ege> I am not able find my zoom window but support luca as editor
13:08:33 <kaz> i/proposal:/kaz: Editor assignment is TF decision/
13:08:46 <kaz> i/proposal:/mm: let's confirm that during this call to make sure/
13:09:08 <kaz> [adjourned]
13:09:13 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:09:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/05-wot-minutes.html kaz
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