11:56:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wot-profile
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11:56:16 <kaz> meeting: WoT Profile
12:00:48 <luca_barbato> luca_barbato has joined #wot-profile
12:01:14 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Luca_Barbato
12:01:57 <kaz> present+ Ben_Francis
12:03:25 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Profile_WebConf#Profile_-_Jun_4th%2C_2024
12:05:46 <kaz> regrets+ Ege, Mizushima
12:06:12 <Tomo> Tomo has joined #wot-profile
12:08:10 <kaz> q+
12:08:46 <kaz> ack k
12:08:57 <kaz> regrets- Mizushima
12:09:04 <kaz> present+ Tomoaki_Mizushima
12:10:26 <kaz> topic: Logistics
12:10:41 <kaz> kaz: don't think having just 3 people would make sense
12:10:56 <kaz> ... but you can still have some technical discussion to clarify issues
12:11:25 <kaz> topic: Issue 412
12:11:31 <kaz> s/Issue/PR/
12:11:48 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/412 PR 412 - Refine Motivation section
12:12:50 <kaz> q+
12:12:58 <Tomo> q+
12:14:12 <kaz> kaz: if Ben's intention is editorial clarification for Motivation, we can merge this PR
12:14:33 <kaz> ... but we have another question about who to listed as "Editors" and what that means
12:14:48 <kaz> ... for that purpose, Luca has sent out an email to the whole group
12:14:50 <kaz> ack k
12:15:18 <kaz> lb: right
12:15:26 <kaz> ... e.g., TF Lead to be the main Editor
12:15:38 <kaz> ... for this call today
12:15:57 <kaz> ... what can we do?
12:16:17 <kaz> tm: I can't understand what WoT Profile should describe
12:16:35 <kaz> ... we should clarify what to be described first
12:16:55 <kaz> ack t
12:17:09 <kaz> ... then we can see Ben's proposal
12:18:20 <kaz> lb: because TD is designed to describe everything, authors of Consumers can't see what to do easily
12:18:43 <kaz> ... Profile clarifies restrictions and what to do from the Consumers' viewpoints
12:18:46 <benfrancis> Definition of profile from the WoT Architecture specification: https://www.w3.org/TR/wot-architecture/#dfn-profile
12:19:31 <kaz> bf: put the definition from the WoT Architecture as above
12:19:36 <kaz> ack b
12:19:50 <kaz> ... can read that quickly
12:19:51 <kaz> [[
12:20:02 <kaz> Profile
12:20:03 <kaz> A technical specification which provides a set of assertions such that any Consumer which conforms with the those assertions is out-of-the-box interoperable with any Thing which also conforms with those assertions.
12:20:03 <kaz> ]]
12:20:11 <kaz> bf: so Profile is a set of assertons
12:20:28 <kaz> q?
12:20:49 <kaz> ... is that clear enough?
12:21:25 <kaz> tm: I think the description itself as a whole is ok
12:21:29 <kaz> ... but...
12:21:49 <kaz> ... we should discuss the whole document structure first
12:21:57 <kaz> q?
12:22:17 <kaz> bf: the definition from the WoT Architecture is fair
12:22:38 <kaz> ... but we have to answer another question before moving ahead
12:22:50 <kaz> ... that's being discussed via email
12:23:10 <kaz> ... unfortunately, there is not much feedback so far
12:23:25 <kaz> ... we may have to propose a resolution as a TF
12:23:36 <kaz> q+
12:23:47 <kaz> lb: one of the remaining part is
12:24:01 <kaz> ... tried to get the Scripting API group by extension
12:24:13 <kaz> ... discussing with the same people of node-wot implementers
12:24:29 <kaz> ... to clarify what is the actual problem with the current WoT Profile
12:25:28 <benfrancis> q?
12:25:30 <kaz> ... at least for us, the way WoT Profile is being written is OK
12:26:41 <kaz> ... we can probably wait for one more week to have more people
12:27:29 <kaz> ... to clarify what to be described by WoT Profile 1.0
12:27:35 <kaz> ... among 3 of us here
12:28:28 <benfrancis> q?
12:28:31 <kaz> ... can we see the consensus that asynchronous action to be tackled
12:30:03 <benfrancis> q+
12:30:10 <kaz> kaz: @@@ dedicated discussion, main call
12:30:13 <kaz> q-
12:30:43 <kaz> ... stakeholders at once
12:31:00 <kaz> bf: there has been useful discussion on email
12:31:14 <kaz> ... some of that was lack of clarity of non-normative sections
12:31:25 <kaz> ... mis-understanding from some of the Siemens participants
12:31:26 <Tomo> +1 for kaz
12:31:44 <kaz> ... and one specific normative content about actions
12:31:56 <kaz> ... ambiguity around sync/async actions
12:32:54 <kaz> ... personally think we should make a resolution about possible options
12:33:24 <kaz> ... 1. if we can get enough implementations, we can move ahead for a REC
12:33:33 <kaz> ... 2. give up the current spec
12:33:40 <kaz> ... myself would go for opt 1
12:33:47 <kaz> s/1./opt 1./
12:33:52 <kaz> s/2./opt 2.
12:34:22 <kaz> lb: if anybody disagree with option 1, we'll see problems with the spec
12:34:30 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
12:34:33 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:34:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/04-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:34:41 <kaz> q?
12:34:41 <kaz> ack b
12:34:53 <benfrancis> q+
12:34:54 <kaz> ... need to see the proof of the problems
12:35:05 <kaz> ... instead of just having concerns
12:35:29 <kaz> ... think Ben agrees with me
12:35:44 <kaz> ... what about you, Mizushima-san and Kaz?
12:35:45 <kaz> q?
12:36:10 <kaz> bf: my understanding from Siemens is object to Profile 1.0
12:36:28 <kaz> ... it's possible for Profile 1.0 with some fixes and get REC
12:36:41 <kaz> ... if we can get sufficient implementations
12:37:17 <kaz> s/is object/is not object/
12:37:58 <kaz> ... it's awkward to implement it within node-wot, though
12:38:33 <kaz> q?
12:38:35 <kaz> ack b
12:39:11 <kaz> lb: I myself have not made contribution to node-wt
12:39:14 <kaz> s/wt/wot/
12:39:28 <kaz> bf: need special code set to handle Profile
12:40:11 <kaz> lb: we probably need somebody who has more experience about the code base
12:41:42 <kaz> ... have not had enough experience yet
12:42:05 <luca_barbato> https://github.com/w3c/wot-scripting-api/issues/555
12:42:10 <kaz> q+
12:42:46 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-scripting-api/issues/555|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-scripting-api/issues/555 wot-scripting-api Issue 555 - Extended return type of invokeAction()
12:43:08 <kaz> bf: in any case, WoT Profile doesn't have to be implemented by node-wot
12:43:20 <kaz> ... it's just that we need 2 or more implementations
12:43:33 <kaz> lb: can you join the main call tomorrow?
12:43:59 <kaz> bf: if necessary, and if that is definitely discussed there
12:44:13 <kaz> q?
12:45:08 <kaz> ack k
12:45:28 <benfrancis> Draft proposal resolution: We agree as a Working Group that for Profiles 1.0 profile specifications are allowed to define protocol bindings that go beyond what can currently be described with binding templates, as a more prescriptive but unambiguous option to guarantee interoperability between greenfield implementations. The Profile task force will
12:45:28 <benfrancis> work towards a  Candidate Recommendation of profiles 1.0, publicise a request for implementations, and if there are sufficient implementations then proceed to Proposed Recommendation.
12:45:44 <kaz> i/Draft/kaz: @@2. consensus building/
12:45:59 <kaz> i/Draft/bf: why don't we make a TF resolution?/
12:46:27 <kaz> i/Draft/kaz: given we just have 3 people today, we can make a resolution though we can still make a proposal/
12:46:30 <kaz> i/Draft/bf: ok/
12:46:44 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
12:46:50 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
12:46:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/04-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz
12:47:58 <benfrancis> q?
12:48:58 <kaz> bf: for Profile 1.0, we already have Protocol Binding for SSE
12:49:28 <kaz> ... ideally stick with the current 1.0 content, and handle Protocol Binding for 2.0
12:49:54 <kaz> lb: that is fine by me
12:50:10 <kaz> q?
12:50:11 <kaz> q+
12:51:08 <kaz> kaz: for tomorrow's main call, what do you want to do?
12:51:17 <kaz> ... Ben's proposal?
12:51:38 <kaz> lb: first, clarify that TF lead to be the main Editor
12:51:56 <kaz> ... then Ben's proposal should be part of the next step discussion
12:52:04 <kaz> q-
12:52:05 <kaz> q+
12:52:59 <kaz> kaz: in that case, how to bring the proposal?
12:53:11 <benfrancis> q?
12:53:20 <benfrancis> q+
12:53:21 <kaz> ... it seems Ben and Luca have the same opinion, but what about Mizushima-san?
12:53:23 <kaz> ack k
12:53:46 <kaz> ... if Mizushima-san doesn't agree, the proposal is from you two
12:53:59 <Tomo> q+
12:54:09 <kaz> bf: would suggest we bring the draft proposal to the main call tomorrow
12:54:58 <kaz> ... regarding the question of TF lead and main Editor, those roles may require different tasks
12:56:00 <benfrancis> q?
12:56:08 <kaz> lb: we have to clarify the Editor assignment policy
12:56:10 <kaz> ack b
12:56:28 <benfrancis> q-
12:57:24 <kaz> tm: I can't understand what should be standardized by WoT Profile 1.0 yet...
12:57:50 <benfrancis> q+
12:58:17 <kaz> ... if we standardize some kind of binding mechanism within Profile, that would not be good
12:58:27 <kaz> ... we should clarify what to be standardized first
12:58:52 <kaz> lb: the main difference between Profile and Binding Templates is
12:59:07 <kaz> ... Binding Templates extends the capability of Things
12:59:28 <kaz> q?
12:59:31 <kaz> ack to
12:59:33 <kaz> qq+
13:00:23 <kaz> ack k
13:00:23 <Zakim> kaz, you wanted to react to Tomo
13:00:31 <kaz> kaz: sorry but we're out of time
13:00:50 <kaz> ... you can still bring your proposals to the main call tomorrow
13:01:00 <benfrancis> Requesting review from Tomo on https://github.com/w3c/wot-profile/pull/412 so that it can be merged outside of a call using the async decision process (while we are waiting for Luca to be confirmed as an editor)
13:02:02 <kaz> kaz: @@@
13:02:10 <kaz> lb: will ask McCool for 5 more mins
13:02:31 <kaz> [adjourned]
13:02:35 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:02:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/06/04-wot-profile-minutes.html kaz