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13:42:37 <Steven> rrsagent, make logs public
13:43:54 <Steven> Meeting: XForms Weekly Teleconference
13:43:58 <Steven> Chair: Steven
13:44:04 <Steven> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2024May/0008
13:44:16 <Steven> Previous Meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/05/17-forms-minutes
13:44:29 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
13:44:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/31-forms-minutes.html Steven
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13:59:03 <Steven> Present: Alain, Erik, Steven
14:01:07 <Steven> Topic: Prague [Regrets for next week]
14:01:41 <Steven> Steven: I will be at Prague, XForms tutorial, and ixml talk
14:02:02 <Steven> Alain: I will be remote
14:02:10 <Steven> Topic: ACTION Steven MIPs on controls
14:02:10 <Steven> https://www.w3.org/community/xformsusers/wiki/XForms_2.0#Property_Attributes
14:02:20 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2024May/0010.html
14:03:20 <Steven> Steven: Are MIPs allowed on containers as well as core controls
14:03:25 <Steven> Erik: I think in general yes.
14:03:32 <Steven> [Alain nods]
14:04:21 <Steven> Erik: <group ref="..." readonly="true">
14:04:34 <Steven> ... inheritance might work differently
14:05:04 <Steven> Steven: So I'll add it, and we can see what ramifications it has
14:05:45 <Steven> Topic: ACTION: Steven spec text for 'initial' MIP
14:05:45 <Steven> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xformsusers/2024May/0009.html
14:06:42 <Steven> Erik: I agree that it is like @calculate.
14:08:12 <Steven> ... It has to happen very early.
14:08:26 <Steven> Steven: initial and calculate bite each other.
14:09:17 <Steven> ... I assume initial happens before the first update
14:10:55 <Steven> Erik: We do it in our implementation just before the first calculate
14:11:18 <Steven> ... right after whitespace processing.
14:13:20 <Steven> Steven: So intiial has an ordering dependency like recalculate
14:14:16 <Steven> Erik: Initial values are done only once; the code is in the update, with evaluation of iinitial only done on the first update.
14:14:51 <Steven> Steven: So you treat it like a calculate, but you do it only once.
14:15:33 <Steven> Steven: And if you have an initial and a caalculate, you do the initial before the calculate?
14:15:35 <Steven> Erik: Yes.
14:17:08 <Steven> Steven: Does it work if you have no <instance/> but <binds/>?
14:18:06 <Steven> ... If not, then initial will never be avaialable. If so then we have to work out if initial happens
14:18:23 <Steven> s/avaialable/available/
14:18:41 <Steven> Erik: We don't say that binds are disallowed...
14:20:03 <Steven> Steven: Does that mean that initial happens on the next update?
14:20:28 <Steven> Erik: the spec may be a bit underspecified on this point.
14:21:24 <Steven> Steven: It sounds like we need an extra update after UI initialisation
14:21:55 <Steven> Erik: We don't implement this bit actually
14:22:08 <Steven> Alain: I do, but I haven't tested it with binds
14:23:36 <Steven> Steven: Why don't we just drop the model construction from the UI?
14:23:52 <Steven> Erik: I would support deprecating or deleting
14:23:55 <Steven> Alain: I agree
14:26:08 <Steven> RESOLUTION: Remove the automatic creatiion of instances during UI construct from XForms
14:26:52 <Steven> Steven: Last question about initial on <insert/>
14:27:24 <Steven> Erik: It can be useful.
14:27:41 <Steven> ACTION: Steven to remove auto generation of instances from spec
14:28:02 <Steven> Topic: AOB
14:28:09 <Steven> [None]
14:28:26 <Steven> [Adjourn]
14:28:47 <Steven> RRSagent, make minutes
14:28:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/31-forms-minutes.html Steven
14:29:32 <Steven> s/creatiion/creation
14:29:56 <Steven> s/intiial/initial/G
14:30:15 <Steven> s/iinitial/initial/G
14:30:35 <Steven> s/caalculate/calculate
14:31:07 <Steven> RRSagent, make minutes
14:31:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/31-forms-minutes.html Steven
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