16:58:14 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:58:18 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/30-aria-irc
16:58:18 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:58:19 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:58:27 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
16:58:27 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:58:28 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240530T130000/
16:58:28 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:58:28 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/4aCpzyr
16:58:28 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3x18ZdJ
16:58:30 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
16:58:33 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:58:35 <agendabot> agenda+ Additional editor of HTML-AAM - -> Rahim https://github.com/rahimabdi
16:58:38 <agendabot> agenda+ -> CSS: handing the a11y of anchor positioning https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/545
16:58:41 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Issue: CSS Highlights Not Clearly Documented in AAM https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/226
16:58:44 <agendabot> agenda+ Triage Issues...
16:59:08 <spectranaut_> spectranaut_ has joined #aria
16:59:17 <spectranaut_> agenda?
16:59:44 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria
17:00:34 <Rahim> present+
17:00:50 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #aria
17:01:01 <Francis_Storr> present+
17:01:06 <sohara> present+
17:01:38 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #aria
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17:01:41 <Adam_Page> scribe: Adam_Page
17:01:43 <Adam_Page> present+
17:01:50 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:01:51 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/4aCpzyr -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:02:15 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria
17:02:23 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:02:26 <Adam_Page> aria#2234
17:02:36 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: JSON roleInfo.js not updated
17:02:37 <ray-schwartz> present+
17:02:58 <Adam_Page> pkra: these only get updated on recommendations
17:03:13 <Adam_Page> ... but we can do them more efficiently after PR
17:03:22 <Adam_Page> jamesn: is it possible to publish as part of TR?
17:03:31 <Adam_Page> ... if so, that could be the versioned copy
17:03:47 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: let‘s discuss in editor’s meeting
17:03:57 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: aria#2233
17:04:08 <Adam_Page> jamesn: this seems like a dupe
17:04:55 <Adam_Page> ... is it aria#1839 ?
17:05:08 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: will you confirm that this is a dupe, giacomo-petri?
17:05:14 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: yes
17:05:32 <jamesn> s/aria#1839/aria#1389/
17:05:32 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria
17:05:33 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: aria#239
17:05:37 <pkra> present+
17:05:41 <benb> benb has joined #aria
17:05:45 <benb> present+
17:06:00 <siri> siri has joined #aria
17:06:45 <Adam_Page> aardrian: Chrome may be changing — will dump link into this issue
17:09:14 <aardrian> There is recent activity on this Chromium issue, though not sure it helps:
17:09:14 <aardrian> https://issues.chromium.org/issues/40343523
17:09:57 <Adam_Page> scotto: the CSS WG needs more a11y participation
17:10:19 <Adam_Page> s/scotto/sohara/
17:10:26 <Rahim> q+
17:10:37 <Adam_Page> jamesn: it’s hard for them to know when a particular issue has an a11y impact
17:10:43 <keithamus> present+
17:11:12 <Adam_Page> aardrian: I volunteer
17:11:58 <aardrian> I appreciate Adam simplified my response.
17:12:10 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: core-aam#234
17:13:05 <Adam_Page> Rahim: do we have documentation on the relationship between content in the DOM and the a11y tree?
17:13:26 <Adam_Page> jamesn: it’s too difficult to document it in a standardized way for all browsers
17:14:44 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: core-aam#234 is editorial
17:14:59 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: then we have some follow-up tasks for the monorepo migration
17:15:19 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: aria#2232
17:15:39 <Adam_Page> ... previews will take a little longer to load, but we’ll be fixing that soon
17:15:48 <Adam_Page> ... skipping over some more editorials
17:16:11 <Adam_Page> ... pkra’s made an issue for editors to review and finalize
17:16:27 <Adam_Page> ... another editorial that we‘re trying to remove references to custom css files
17:16:40 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: aria#2225
17:17:14 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: ARIA spec is clear from a user agent perspective, but not for authros
17:17:19 <Adam_Page> s/authros/authors/
17:17:48 <Adam_Page> ... when IDREF references an invalid ID
17:18:34 <Adam_Page> ... I recommend it is important to clarify that there is an author issue if the ID is missing or has not matching element in the page
17:18:48 <Adam_Page> Rahim: I raised a similar issue on `undefined` and see some overlap
17:18:58 <Adam_Page> ... how an author provides or doesn’t provide a value
17:19:03 <Adam_Page> ... empty string, undefined, null, etc.
17:19:12 <Adam_Page> ... there’s ambiguity in the spec on those assignments
17:19:20 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: I’ll link that
17:19:39 <Adam_Page> ... do these proposals conflict with that?
17:20:00 <Adam_Page> Rahim: the empty string case is clearly specified, IMO
17:20:33 <Adam_Page> keithamus: you said there’s a discrepancy between undefined and null. I’m curious about that
17:20:48 <Adam_Page> ... if it’s serialized HTML, it has no concept of undefined or null
17:21:09 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: check out Rahim’s aria#2176 and aria#2177
17:21:11 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:21:11 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Adam_Page
17:21:17 <spectranaut_> q?
17:21:20 <spectranaut_> ack Rahim
17:21:22 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:21:22 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3x18ZdJ -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:21:29 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria
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17:21:41 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: a ton of PRs moving to the ARIA spec
17:21:43 <TheoHale> present+
17:21:59 <Adam_Page> ... nothing to discuss
17:22:01 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:22:01 <Zakim> agendum 2 was just opened, Adam_Page
17:22:05 <Adam_Page> zakim, close this item
17:22:05 <Zakim> agendum 2 closed
17:22:06 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:22:06 <Zakim> 3. -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y [from agendabot]
17:22:11 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:22:11 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:22:28 <CoryJoseph> Present+
17:22:56 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:22:56 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, Adam_Page
17:22:58 <Adam_Page> zakim, close this item
17:22:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 closed
17:23:01 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:23:01 <Zakim> 4. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
17:23:01 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:23:01 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:23:18 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: any deep dives to schedule?
17:23:37 <Adam_Page> aardrian: I missed the ariaNotify and want to catch up. How can I?
17:23:49 <Adam_Page> jamesn: please send me an email and I’ll send you the recording
17:23:57 <Adam_Page> ... and don’t distribute
17:24:05 <Adam_Page> daniel-montalvo: you may need Google Drive access
17:24:10 <Adam_Page> ... just request it if true
17:24:31 <Adam_Page> zakim, close this item
17:24:31 <Zakim> agendum 4 closed
17:24:32 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:24:32 <Zakim> 5. Additional editor of HTML-AAM - -> Rahim https://github.com/rahimabdi [from agendabot]
17:24:34 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:24:34 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Additional editor of HTML-AAM - -> Rahim https://github.com/rahimabdi -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:24:41 <TheoHale> jamesn can you send me the link to the meeting/deep dive.
17:25:22 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: please everyone welcome Rahim as a new HTML-AAM editor!
17:25:30 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:25:30 <Zakim> agendum 5 was just opened, Adam_Page
17:25:38 <Adam_Page> zakim, close this item
17:25:39 <Zakim> agendum 5 closed
17:25:39 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:25:39 <Zakim> 6. -> CSS: handing the a11y of anchor positioning https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/545 [from agendabot]
17:25:41 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:25:41 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> CSS: handing the a11y of anchor positioning https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/545 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:25:53 <jamesn> TheoHale: please send me an email
17:26:29 <Adam_Page> sohara: we don’t have a place to to outline the CSS a11y semantics
17:26:42 <Adam_Page> ... anchor positioning is a new feature meant to be used for popovers
17:26:57 <Adam_Page> ... currently, position:fixed in top layer of browser and you have to use JS to position it correctly
17:27:08 <Adam_Page> ... this CSS property will associate the elements together so you don’t have to micromanage the location
17:27:32 <Adam_Page> ... we had talked about there being an `aria-details` relationship with this property
17:27:41 <Adam_Page> ... so that if someone used it on a non-popover element
17:27:57 <Adam_Page> ... we could add an aria relationship to communicate that
17:28:13 <Adam_Page> ... we don’t have CSS-AAM, so maybe we can carve out a section in HTML-AAM
17:28:18 <Adam_Page> ... after the monorepo migration
17:28:24 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: any questions?
17:28:34 <Adam_Page> ... is there anything controversial here?
17:28:43 <Adam_Page> aardrian: not for us, but need to read it
17:28:56 <Adam_Page> ... may prove challenging for devs who are not familiar with surrounding concerns
17:29:17 <Adam_Page> sohara: part of this is making sure there’s a minimum layer of a11y
17:29:22 <Adam_Page> aardrian: predictable, if nothing else
17:29:27 <Adam_Page> sohara: please poke at it
17:29:31 <Adam_Page> ... post in the issue
17:29:43 <Adam_Page> ... I or aaronlev will respond
17:30:00 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: we spitballed making a CSS-AAM but ended up decided to stick with HTML-AAM
17:30:03 <Adam_Page> sohara: for now
17:30:15 <Adam_Page> ... might still be a good idea to spin up, but then definitely need a a bridge to the CSS WG
17:30:26 <Adam_Page> s/a a/a/
17:31:29 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:31:29 <Zakim> agendum 7 -- -> Issue: CSS Highlights Not Clearly Documented in AAM https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/226 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:31:47 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: may not be anything further to discuss here
17:31:51 <Adam_Page> TheoHale: I need to do more work here
17:32:07 <Adam_Page> ... but this is a case where CSS did do some good a11y work, but didn’t document it
17:32:21 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: should this issue actually be in HTML-AAM?
17:32:42 <Adam_Page> ... I’ll move it there
17:32:57 <Adam_Page> zakim, next item
17:32:57 <Zakim> agendum 8 -- Triage Issues... -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:34:16 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: aria#482 from Nov 2016 (!!!)
17:34:26 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we don’t need a feature for the href attribute
17:34:38 <Adam_Page> pkra: this ties into attribute parity
17:34:53 <Adam_Page> ... is this something that will come up again?
17:35:06 <Adam_Page> ... should we have a marker for saying “maybe, in the future, but right now, no”?
17:35:07 <sohara> q+
17:35:17 <Adam_Page> ... but I do support closing this
17:35:39 <Adam_Page> jamesn: why would anyone ever want to set a different href for the a11y api?
17:36:12 <Adam_Page> sohara: one use case I can see, and this is not a priority...
17:36:16 <Adam_Page> ... someone makes div role=
17:36:18 <pkra> apologies for jumping the queue!
17:36:35 <Adam_Page> ... someone makes div[role="link"] and wants to set a href
17:36:42 <sarah> q+
17:37:25 <Adam_Page> ... they wanted to make it as close to a hyperlink as possible, but don’t want to use href
17:37:49 <Adam_Page> ... most people using role="link" are using tons of JS, and this wouldn’t help them
17:38:08 <spectranaut_> ack sarah
17:38:12 <Adam_Page> sarah: I agree with pkra
17:38:22 <Adam_Page> ... “in theory, this might be needed, but it isn’t now”
17:38:44 <Adam_Page> ... in sohara’s example, other functionality is sabotaged, like opening link in new window from context menu
17:39:16 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: so we need to make it easy to find for someone who might log a similar issue in the future
17:39:22 <Adam_Page> ... so have a label like “not a priority”
17:40:02 <Adam_Page> aardrian: I would still close it
17:40:25 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: let’s pick a label
17:41:50 <Adam_Page> ... let’s go with "wontfix"
17:42:47 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
17:43:02 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: aria#483
17:43:57 <Adam_Page> pkra: is this for html-aam?
17:44:07 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: “not mapped”
17:44:13 <Adam_Page> pkra: is there something to map it to?
17:44:31 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: we’ll close as "wontfix"
17:44:43 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: aria#484
17:44:50 <Adam_Page> jamesn: close it
17:45:04 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: closed
17:45:18 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: aria#517
17:45:40 <Adam_Page> pkra: blocked by jcraig’s comments
17:45:41 <Rahim> q+
17:46:04 <Adam_Page> sohara: there are platform roles now
17:46:20 <Adam_Page> ... I don’t think we need this
17:46:25 <Adam_Page> jamesn: it was only ever for test reasons
17:46:44 <Rahim> q-
17:46:47 <Adam_Page> pkra: "wontfix"
17:48:18 <Adam_Page> jamesn: we could just use aria-roledescription, for example
17:48:25 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: closed as "wontfix"
17:48:40 <spectranaut_> ack sohara
17:48:51 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #aria
17:48:57 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: aria#521
17:48:57 <aardrian> present+
17:49:09 <Adam_Page> ... roles for drag and drop
17:49:57 <sarah> q+
17:49:57 <Adam_Page> TheoHale: is it actually helpful information for AT users?
17:50:15 <sarah> q-
17:50:17 <Adam_Page> sohara: propose closing
17:50:47 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: closing as "wontfix"
17:50:57 <Adam_Page> ... aria#524
17:51:05 <Adam_Page> ... alllow aria-setsize on container elements
17:51:12 <sarah> q+
17:51:28 <Adam_Page> sarah: I can speak about this
17:51:46 <Adam_Page> ... maybe this can be folded into the other PR
17:51:51 <Adam_Page> ... for toolbars
17:52:01 <Adam_Page> ... ref either aria#2158 or aardrian’s PR
17:52:07 <Adam_Page> ... aria#2170
17:52:25 <Adam_Page> ... so we could close this in favor of the open PR
17:52:32 <sarah> ack me
17:52:33 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: closed
17:52:54 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: aria#542
17:53:05 <Adam_Page> ... new attribute aria-readonly for role=form
17:53:16 <sohara> q+
17:53:52 <Adam_Page> sohara: I’d argue we don’t need this, it should start in HTML first
17:53:57 <Adam_Page> ... and HTML doesn’t allow a form to be readonly
17:54:03 <Adam_Page> ... recommend closing
17:54:06 <aardrian> +1 to scott
17:54:15 <Adam_Page> ... if you want it to be readonly, just use text
17:54:22 <giacomo-petri> q+
17:54:24 <Adam_Page> ... or readonly inputs
17:54:37 <jamesn> q+
17:54:44 <Adam_Page> giacomo-petri: I have an example
17:54:48 <Adam_Page> ... checkboxes don’t support readonly
17:55:06 <Adam_Page> ... in learning use cases, they sometimes want to show a checkbox but in a readonly state
17:55:19 <Adam_Page> ... and disabled doesn’t work well
17:55:40 <Adam_Page> ... edge case scenario
17:55:43 <jamesn> ack giacomo-petri
17:55:55 <jamesn> q+
17:55:57 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: maybe this should be pushed into HTML
17:56:23 <jamesn> ack sohara
17:56:53 <Adam_Page> jamesn: I agree; there are already options to make it readonly
17:57:09 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: closed
17:57:29 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: aria#574
17:57:43 <Adam_Page> ... role="switch" should have additional attr `aria-valuetext`
17:58:00 <Adam_Page> sohara: I have a dupe for this
17:58:30 <sarah> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2085
17:58:52 <Adam_Page> spectranaut_: will close this as a dupe, since there’s more chatter on the new one
17:59:18 <Adam_Page> spectranaut: we closed every issue we looked at!
17:59:37 <Adam_Page> zakim, end meeting
17:59:37 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Rahim, Francis_Storr, sohara, Adam_Page, giacomo-petri, ray-schwartz, pkra, benb, keithamus, TheoHale, CoryJoseph, Daniel, aardrian
17:59:40 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:59:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/30-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:59:48 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Adam_Page; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:59:48 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria