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13:58:31 <kaz> meeting: WoT-WG - TD-TF
13:58:41 <kaz> s/TD-TF/TD-TF - Slot 1/
13:58:45 <kaz> rrsagent, make log public
13:58:49 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
13:58:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
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14:01:22 <kaz> agenda: https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Thing_Description_WebConf#May_29_and_30_2024
14:01:22 <mahda> present+ Mahda_Noura
14:01:31 <mahda> scribenick: mahda
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14:01:48 <kaz> present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Ege_Korkan, Cristiano_Aguzzi, Jan_Romann, Luca_Barbato
14:03:07 <kaz> present+ Kunihiko_Toumura, Tomoaki_Mizushima
14:03:55 <kaz> chair: Ege
14:04:51 <mahda> Topic: Agenda Review
14:05:16 <mahda> ege: TD tooling sub report, initial connection and TD project/Backlog
14:05:28 <mahda> Topic: Minutes
14:05:39 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2024/05/22-wot-td-minutes.html May-22
14:05:53 <mahda> ege: Will go quickly over the minutes
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14:06:56 <mahda> ege: minutes from last week are approved
14:07:26 <kaz> s/last week/last Wednesday/
14:07:32 <kaz> -> https://www.w3.org/2024/05/23-wot-td-minutes.html May-23
14:07:50 <mahda> ege: since we are not sure if we will have a meeting tomorrow regarding the TD, we will have a look at them from Thursday last week. Everyone should have received the email on the minutes
14:08:04 <mahda> ege: Minutes of last week Thursday are also approved
14:08:14 <kaz> s/last week./last week too./
14:08:30 <mahda> subtopic: TD Tooling Sub TF Report
14:08:59 <mahda> ege: for each part of the TD information model, there is a possibility to generate MD for the documentation
14:09:02 <kaz> i/subtopic:/topic: TD/
14:09:09 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:09:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:09:19 <mahda> ...makefile is removed and we only use python
14:09:39 <mahda> ... also there is a readme update
14:10:15 <kaz> q+
14:10:48 <kaz> q-
14:11:10 <mahda> ... Luca is planned to do a PR for separating branches and deployment
14:11:20 <Ege> Ege has joined #wot-td
14:11:38 <mahda> ... mahda plans to fix the LinkML schema for the Json Schema generation
14:12:04 <mahda> ...if anyone else is interested let Ege know and they can also join
14:12:16 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description-toolchain-tmp toolchain repo
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14:12:54 <mahda> subtopic: Initial Connection
14:13:49 <mahda> ege: the goal is to extend the part of markdown so we have an understanding as a group, since the topic is large. It is important to have the same understanding. It will also be one of the usability improvements of the TD spec
14:14:27 <Ege6> https://github.com/w3c/wot/blob/main/planning/ThingDescription/td-next-work-items/usability-and-design.md#reusable-connections
14:15:50 <mahda> ege: Ege separated the document into Problem and related issues, and also the media type is made more clear
14:16:10 <kaz> s|subtopic: I|subtopic: Reusable / I|
14:17:34 <mahda> ... anything you configure for a protocol that does not change for a form will be repeated, multiple bases are not possible, semantics of the protocol
14:17:36 <kaz> q+
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14:18:23 <mahda> ... I want that we think about our requirements, currently the one in this document is a technical one, in the comming weeks we should think about the requirements and look at the issues while doing this
14:19:25 <mahda> kaz: Based on potential use cases, this discussion would be useful and important. However, from a security and privacy viewpoint, we need to identify how we use each connection, i.e. network resource. Potentially using that kind of information might be dangerous. We need to be careful
14:20:28 <mahda> Ege: We didn't do any validation, but I hope there won't be any user information. We are just regrouping terms, and I hope there won't be added risks, but we need to be careful
14:20:50 <Ege6> q?
14:20:53 <Ege6> ack k
14:20:53 <mahda> ...the important part is that "each connection needs to be identifiable"
14:21:22 <mahda> ...we currently have 4 issues, one from Cristiano is giving a good overview
14:21:42 <kaz> s/i.e. net/e.g., some kind of ID, user information and network resource/
14:21:48 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:21:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:21:56 <mahda> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/878
14:22:23 <Ege6> - <https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1664>
14:22:23 <Ege6> - <https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1248>
14:22:23 <Ege6> - <https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1242>
14:22:23 <Ege6> - <https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/878>
14:22:48 <mahda> ege: if anyone notices issues related, ket me know
14:24:03 <mahda> Issue #878 is abour initial connections, it is about the 4th problem mentioned in the doc
14:24:33 <mahda> Ege: Issue #1242 is about linking to the top level connection
14:25:20 <mahda> Ege: Issue #1664 is about describing a single WebSocket endpoint shared by multiple TD's
14:26:06 <Ege6> q?
14:26:08 <mahda> Ege: I would like to have a detailed requirements, are there any points that you can already think of based on experience?
14:26:11 <kaz> q?
14:26:15 <kaz> q+
14:26:22 <cris> q+
14:27:55 <kaz> s/abour/about
14:27:56 <kaz> q-
14:28:57 <kaz> s/we currently have 4 issues/we currently have 4 issues around Reusable Connections/
14:29:07 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:29:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
14:29:15 <mahda> cris: The intial connection is a bit tricky, because you can manipulate the connection behind the curtains, it is tricky because you can already catch the initial connection when you need it, lazy connection.
14:29:32 <luca_barbato> q+
14:30:44 <mahda> ...if we ever tackle the discussion, the first question is that do we want to have an interaction with stateless Thing
14:31:39 <mahda> Ege: for me the idea was that if you do a read property, you see the initial connection,  and can then reuse it
14:32:14 <kaz> ack cr
14:32:23 <mahda> Cris: If you check for an open initial connection at some point you need to close it
14:33:49 <kaz> q+
14:33:54 <mahda> Luca: We have already these kinds of problems when we have this specific flows in and out, exchange TLS keys, as a TD goes, the security part is already having those issues. In any case we need to solve them in the same way for a connection-oriented protocol and any security encapsulation protocol
14:35:24 <mahda> Ege: Maybe we need to mention this, I would imagine if we need to provide a standardized option like oauth
14:35:44 <kaz> s/oauth/OAuth/
14:36:08 <mahda> Luca: this is an implementation detail, it is good to think about it, but we need to make it in a way, being eager or lazy
14:36:46 <Ege6> q?
14:37:46 <mahda> ...we have to have the concept of connection and the initiator, which complicates
14:37:47 <kaz> ack lu
14:39:39 <mahda> Kaz: Technically we should think about use cases, but given the discussion from today so far, maybe we want to think about simple use cases including a specific device, multiple connection, and thinking about the flow before the requirements. Maybe we can think about basic data transfer sequence
14:40:13 <kaz> s/maybe we want/maybe we might want/
14:40:32 <kaz> s/simple use cases/some simple use case/
14:41:07 <kaz> s/a specific device,/a specific device and a specific application with/
14:41:15 <mahda> Ege: good point, maybe we start with an example of message flow
14:41:33 <kaz> present+ Michael_Koster
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14:42:42 <luca_barbato> q+
14:42:49 <kaz> q-
14:43:25 <mahda> Luca: Keep in mind that the websocket is at the same logical level as TCP
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14:44:19 <mjk2> q?
14:44:37 <mahda> ... I have a socket from UDP or TCP and do something on top
14:45:59 <mahda> Ege: would you not see it here in the document?
14:47:28 <mahda> Luca: we could use Socket.io
14:47:42 <mahda> Ege: we could include something like CoAP over Web Socket
14:47:53 <mahda> Luca: I think there is something CBOR-based
14:48:52 <mahda> Luca: we can put WireGuard
14:49:17 <mahda> Ege: We have the proxy term in the security, maybe we write it as Proxy-based communication
14:49:39 <mahda> Ege: Today, I would like to merge this document and see if we can get some contributions to it
14:50:00 <mahda> Luca: It is too early to discuss if we would have consensus on change subprotocol to protocol
14:50:11 <mahda> Ege: This would be in the scope of the same feature
14:51:10 <luca_barbato> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1834
14:51:22 <kaz> i|I think there|-> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8323.html CoAP over TCP, TLS, and WebSockets|
14:51:37 <mahda> ...What I would want to do is to see if we can get examples of communication protocols
14:52:23 <mahda> Ege: Would somebody want to tackle this? I would say a sequence diagram would be enough, the actual analysis would be done later. To show the data flow and the kinda action we need to consider
14:52:25 <kaz> s|https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1834|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/1834 Issue 1834 - Reconsider the interaction between Thing::base, Form and how the protocol is signaled|
14:52:35 <mahda> Ege: the messages between the Things and Consumers
14:52:45 <mahda> ...do we have any volunteers here?
14:54:19 <cris> q+
14:54:27 <kaz> ack lu
14:54:36 <kaz> ack cr
14:55:11 <mahda> Cris: I can try to do this, the part of WebSocket, I can try. The output your looking is a sequence diagram, with the messages?
14:55:35 <mahda> Ege: yes, I think for the MQTT protocol for instance they have some basic diagrams
14:55:49 <mahda> Cris: Should I adapt them to our context?
14:56:04 <mahda> Ege: If we can put them in the context would be nice
14:56:22 <mahda> Cris: Do you expect them to be written in this current document or somewhere else?
14:56:29 <mahda> Ege: In this same document
14:56:55 <mahda> Ege: Luca could you look at the Proxy-based part?
14:58:11 <mahda> Luca: I can try to write down some possible examples
14:58:55 <mahda> ... the same socket for the same Things example
14:59:12 <mahda> ...I can try to come up with something by next week
14:59:21 <kaz> q+
15:00:39 <kaz> q-
15:00:44 <mahda> Kaz: Think about broker-based, proxy-based probably would be needed at some point. We can start with a simple case: one Thing and one Consumer
15:01:00 <kaz> s/We can/However, we can/
15:01:08 <mahda> Ege: I can do this simple case
15:02:20 <kaz> -> https://github.com/w3c/wot-thing-description/issues/2025 Issue 2025 - Extending the initial/reusable connection examples
15:02:24 <kaz> q+
15:02:51 <mahda> Ege: There is a public holiday tomorrow in Germany, Mahda and Ege can't be present. Jan will be available. Will you be available Michael Koster?
15:03:13 <mahda> Koster: I will be available, we can continue on the stuff we did today, and bindings
15:03:23 <mahda> Kaz: Who will be present tomorrow?
15:03:54 <luca_barbato> +1
15:04:00 <cris> +1
15:04:06 <ktoumura> +1
15:04:56 <kaz> (At least Koster, Jan, Luca, Cris and Toumura)
15:05:06 <kaz> [ So we'll have a call tomorrow ]
15:05:12 <kaz> [adjourned]
15:05:24 <kaz> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:05:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/29-wot-td-minutes.html kaz
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