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14:42:57 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
14:42:58 <Zakim> Meeting: AGWG Teleconference
14:43:04 <Chuck> chair:  Chuck
14:43:13 <Chuck> meeting:  AGWG-2024-05-28
14:43:22 <Chuck> rrsagent, generate minutes
14:43:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/28-ag-minutes.html Chuck
14:43:32 <Chuck> agenda+ Introduction to Conformance conversation
14:43:46 <Chuck> agenda+ WCAG2ICT Review Discussio
14:44:02 <Chuck> agenda- 2
14:44:10 <Chuck> agenda+ agenda+ WCAG2ICT Review Discussion
14:44:22 <Chuck> agenda+ Refining WCAG 3 structure continued
14:45:58 <Chuck> regrets: Frankie Wolf, Bruce Bailey, Makoto Ueki, Roberto Scano
14:47:52 <alastairc> regrets+ MichaelGower
14:56:38 <Chuck> https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/fad52978-dc63-4427-90b9-e64dd31b0566/20240528T110000/
14:58:42 <Graham> Graham has joined #ag
14:58:50 <Francis_Storr> Francis_Storr has joined #ag
14:58:51 <Francis_Storr> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/3878
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15:00:04 <Jennie_Delisi> present+
15:00:19 <Jennie_Delisi> *anyone else having trouble getting to the telecom page to get the join link for the meeting?
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15:00:45 <wendyreid> present+
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15:01:54 <JenStrickland> present+
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15:02:22 <dj> present+
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15:02:27 <dj> scribe+
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15:02:41 <dan_bjorge> present+
15:02:42 <Nayan> +present
15:03:01 <jeanne> present+
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15:03:22 <dj> Chuck: last call of may
15:03:23 <giacomo-petri> present+
15:03:29 <kevin> present+
15:03:30 <alastairc> present+
15:03:34 <Kimberly> present+
15:03:40 <Azlan> Also having a 500 error accessing the url shadi has listed above
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15:03:43 <dj> ... introductions?
15:03:57 <dj> ... announcements:
15:04:00 <laura> present+ Laura_Carlson
15:04:07 <kirkwood> teleconf info pate issue can’t login
15:04:09 <dj> ... 1. AI
15:04:10 <julierawe> julierawe has joined #ag
15:04:20 <julierawe> present+
15:04:28 <jtoles> present+
15:04:42 <Detlev> Detlev has joined #ag
15:04:46 <dj> ... AGWG after hours last week, this is in consideration
15:04:50 <shadi> present+
15:05:01 <dj> ... wendyreid said she would reach out to vendors
15:05:13 <wendyreid> https://github.com/w3c/AB-memberonly/issues/180
15:05:14 <dj> wendyreid: for automated transcription, we're collecting resources
15:05:14 <Azlan> present+
15:05:53 <dj> ... we're looking for a vendor to enable us to use automated transcription
15:05:58 <ashleyfirth> ashleyfirth has joined #ag
15:06:05 <dj> ... we also want to preserve privacy
15:06:12 <dj> ... and we have specific needs:
15:06:22 <dj> ... - needs to be live editable
15:06:24 <DuffJohnson> DuffJohnson has joined #ag
15:06:32 <dj> ... needs to be quickly toggleable (off record stuff)
15:06:48 <dj> ... needs to keep our data controlled
15:07:08 <dj> ... comment other use-cases in the thread, or email me
15:07:11 <Chuck> q?
15:07:18 <sarahhorton> sarahhorton has joined #ag
15:07:31 <dj> Chuck: our group might be a test case
15:07:34 <dj> ... any questions?
15:07:51 <dj> ... announcement 2. health & safety for TPAC
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15:08:01 <kirkwood> present+
15:08:05 <ashleyfirth> present+
15:08:05 <tburtin> present+
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15:08:17 <scotto> present+
15:08:19 <dj> ... AB wants to find a balance between participant safety and sediment
15:08:50 <dj> ... i would suggest talking with your advisory committee member if you're planning to attend and have specific health needs
15:09:14 <dj> s/sediment/sentiment
15:09:54 <dj> ... there is a desire to be safe, and there are individuals that have their own ideas of what the best policy would be (that's what sentiment means here)
15:10:01 <dj> ... 3. old branches
15:10:15 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/3878
15:10:21 <dj> alastairc: wcag2 repo, there are tons of old branches
15:10:40 <dj> ... we don't want old branches that won't be merged
15:11:14 <dj> ... we will remove anything more than 6 months old in a few weeks, so post a comment or update the table if you want yours saved
15:11:47 <Chuck> q?
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15:12:11 <dj> Chuck: any new topics people would like us to cover in a later meeting?
15:12:12 <mike_beganyi> present+
15:12:15 <Chuck> zakim, take up item 1
15:12:16 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Introduction to Conformance conversation -- taken up [from Chuck]
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15:12:37 <Rachael> conformance link: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/17VJvnm5UQW4WUzIoo9QNPVGfePgaZa8ifZWs-wtmv7E/edit#slide=id.p
15:12:47 <TheoHale> present+
15:13:18 <dj> Rachael: conformance and the decisions around it is one of the most challenging conversations
15:13:40 <dj> ... we'd like to have 1-2 outcomes for later
15:14:12 <dj> ... [reads slide 2]
15:14:42 <dj> ... Guideline structure - structures have emerged from the Focus Visible subgroup and other subgroups
15:15:07 <dj> ... we need to figure out as a group what we want to do so that future subgroups know what they're doing from the start
15:17:09 <sarahhorton> present+
15:17:51 <sarahhorton> q+
15:17:58 <Chuck> ack Sarah
15:18:22 <Chuck> q+
15:18:23 <dj> sarahhorton: i feel like we haven't been talking about the notion of critical errors anymore, is that still part of conformance?
15:18:31 <dj> Rachael: i think that's part of tollerance
15:18:42 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:18:45 <Rachael> q
15:18:46 <dj> Chuck: is that analogous to non-interference in WCAG2
15:18:47 <Rachael> q+
15:18:58 <Chuck> ack Rach
15:19:16 <dj> sarahhorton: yeah, and i think there was an idea of not having any critical errors to pass bronze
15:19:32 <Chuck> q?
15:19:37 <Detlev> present+
15:19:43 <dj> Rachael: yeah, we will absolutely dive into that as tollerance
15:20:41 <dj> ... [reads slide 4]
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15:20:51 <dj> ... you must meet all of the outcomes to meet a guideline (that's what the AND relationship means)
15:21:06 <dj> ... OR means you have multiple ways to meet a requirement
15:21:14 <dj> ... this is a potential structure
15:21:54 <dj> ... the percentages are complete estimate placeholders for now
15:22:25 <dj> ... there's a table of all the proposals
15:22:27 <Rachael> History of proposals: https://github.com/w3c/silver/wiki/Conformance-Proposals-2018-to-present
15:22:37 <dj> ... jeanne has kept a list of all proposals to date
15:22:42 <Rachael> https://docs.google.com/document/d/16B5q1DvKxTXioayJWzxFdXXxTrBClxBapBxokg8Nrjg/edit
15:23:23 <dj> ... [reads slide 5]
15:24:00 <dj> ... questions?
15:24:43 <dj> ... [moves on to reference section]
15:25:00 <dj> ... i highly encourage you to read the conformance section of WCAG3 if you haven't recently
15:25:17 <dj> Chuck: vocabulary page is slide 8
15:25:24 <dj> Rachael: they are also linked to from the front page
15:25:30 <Jennie_Delisi> *Really appreciate the glossary, summary, and walk through
15:25:46 <wendyreid> q+
15:25:46 <Chuck> q?
15:25:50 <dj> Chuck: we are introducing this conversation, and we expect it to take up the next several agendas
15:25:53 <Chuck> ack wendy
15:26:02 <Nayan> does anyone have the WCAG 3 proposal link?
15:26:08 <Rachael> q+
15:26:15 <Chuck> ack Rach
15:26:22 <dj> wendyreid: we're hopefully going to land on one model, right?
15:26:32 <dj> Rachael: we have two goals:
15:26:43 <dj> ... 1. come out with initial structure
15:27:04 <dj> ... 2 (for conformance conversation). come out with two possible directions which we can get public comment on
15:27:19 <ljoakley> q+
15:27:20 <dj> ... we hope to be able to provide test pages and excel sheet models to try out the models
15:27:23 <Chuck> ack lj
15:27:40 <dj> ljoakley: is this slide deck available to us?
15:27:46 <dj> Rachael: yes, it's also in the shared folder
15:27:59 <Nayan> we use a specific excel sheet, how can we share what we are doing for conformance?
15:28:07 <Rachael> https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1e2lqoFnR8I0G933YghrMfGy06G8qH_zP
15:28:36 <alastairc> Nayan - that's probably for WCAG 2.x? In which case it isn't relevent here, we're starting off with a new model
15:28:48 <kirkwood> (needed to request access btw)
15:28:54 <Nayan> our template - - got it
15:29:34 <alastairc> Top level folder that people should have access to: https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/1BZe6A1zS5fKd3XH039edyOKcmsDMHTEg
15:29:35 <dj> [there are access issues. people are working on it, and the advice is to save the link and it will be fixed later]
15:29:37 <Chuck> zakim, take up next item
15:29:37 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- agenda+ WCAG2ICT Review Discussion -- taken up [from Chuck]
15:30:21 <dj> Chuck: several points, issues, and comments raised in the last week
15:30:53 <dj> MaryJoMueller: right after we started that review, we introduced a number of pointed changes
15:31:03 <dj> ... there have been two rounds of surveys so far
15:31:22 <dj> present+ MaryJoMueller
15:31:49 <dj> ... there were a few open "needs review" issues -- only 4.1.1 Parsing required a change
15:32:16 <dj> ... i created a pull request for that
15:32:22 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/pull/379
15:32:30 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #ag
15:33:16 <dj> s/MaryJoMueller/maryjom
15:33:28 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/368#issuecomment-2135112937
15:33:31 <dj> present- MaryJoMueller
15:33:35 <dj> present+ maryjom
15:33:58 <dj> ... two new issues last week:
15:34:07 <dj> ... 1. focus not obscured
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15:34:55 <dj> ... floating toolbars and etcetera
15:35:04 <dj> ... such as in an authoring tool, editing bars
15:35:18 <dj> ... note to talk about that
15:35:35 <dj> ... 2. feedback from microsoft on reflow
15:36:19 <dj> ... reflow specifies specific scroll width/height
15:36:41 <dj> ... WCAG2ICT covers a wide variety of screens and screen dimensions, so might not be possible
15:36:54 <dj> ... question is what to do in that situation
15:37:58 <Chuck> q?
15:38:00 <dj> ... this might need to be addressed as normative changes, which we can't do in WCAG2ICT
15:38:38 <dj> Chuck: review clock has been reset
15:39:03 <dj> maryjom: sooner the better as well
15:39:11 <Chuck> zakim, take up next item
15:39:11 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Refining WCAG 3 structure continued -- taken up [from Chuck]
15:39:13 <TheoHale> Here is that issue in discussion related to WCAG2ICT: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/377
15:39:54 <maryjom> present+
15:40:14 <dj> alastairc: https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/87 (comment from 4 days ago)
15:40:55 <dj> ... in Text Alternatives, outcome was image has equivalent text alternative
15:41:09 <dj> ... there was also a decision tree of methods for conformance
15:43:04 <dj> ... Focus Appearance was slightly different
15:43:14 <dj> ... ("focus must be visually indicated")
15:43:21 <dj> ... the requirements had a slightly different structure
15:43:38 <dj> ... for all focus indicators, there are certain base requirements:
15:43:45 <dj> ... - must exist
15:43:51 <dj> ... - can't be obscured
15:43:56 <dj> ... - must be percsistent
15:44:01 <dj> ... [see rest of list]
15:44:19 <dj> ... then a set of hopefully mutually-exclusive scenarios
15:44:39 <dj> ... - using default user agent indicator
15:44:44 <dj> ... - not using default indicator
15:45:10 <dj> ... - - (specific requirements thereof)
15:45:43 <dj> ... adjacent contrast needs to work differently depending on the type of indicator you have
15:45:50 <dan_bjorge> +1 to the approach of specific reqs for common types of indicator, much more realistic to test this with tools without having to resort to pixel-picking
15:46:50 <dj> ... [various other specific requirements for different types of indicators]
15:47:08 <dj> ... so slightly different structure from Text Alternatives
15:47:26 <dj> ... A) decision tree B) list of methods
15:47:38 <dj> ... [reads overview from github discussion]
15:47:48 <dj> s/overview/questions
15:47:52 <kirkwood> i’m wondering if having a “distinct style” should it not be a “distinct consistent style” (are we assuming this?)
15:48:13 <Chuck> q+ to acknowledge comments made in irc
15:49:31 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:49:31 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to acknowledge comments made in irc
15:49:43 <dj> Chuck: reads dan_bjorge's and kirkwood's comments
15:50:35 <dj> kirkwood: wondering about the style of focus indicator being consistent throughout a site
15:50:57 <dj> alastairc: maybe not at bronze -- there are lots of sites w/ different background colors for different places
15:51:00 <dj> q+
15:51:10 <Chuck> scribe+
15:51:42 <Chuck> dj:  Following up on John's comments on consistent indicator color and styling.  I've seen sites with different backgrounds as a form of indicator.
15:51:56 <Chuck> dj:  I want to make sure we address that it is not at bronze.
15:52:01 <Jennie_Delisi> * will there also be something to consider mouse focus in the future?
15:52:17 <dan_bjorge> q+
15:52:29 <Chuck> q+ to acknowledge Jennie's IRC question.
15:52:35 <dj> alastairc: yeah, we will have more opportunity to address this as we continue the conversation
15:52:38 <Chuck> ack dj
15:52:48 <TheoHale> John Kirkwood comment, I do think having consistency across the site, within the roles, and in shape seems reasonable.
15:52:51 <Chuck> ack dan
15:52:54 <dj> ... one example of this could be 'there is a consistent design applied...'
15:53:27 <dj> dan_bjorge: do we need to be consistent about whether methods always need to be AND?
15:53:45 <dj> ... in WCAG2 we really commonly have different requirements which are listed differently
15:53:58 <dj> scribe+
15:54:05 <Jennie_Delisi> q+
15:54:13 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:54:13 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to acknowledge Jennie's IRC question.
15:54:18 <dj> alastairc: we've got underlying requirements (example: must exist)
15:54:41 <dj> ... we could either separate those out, or have them repeated in each method
15:54:54 <Chuck> ack Jennie
15:55:30 <dj> Jennie_Delisi: are we going to include mouse focus indicators?
15:55:41 <dj> alastairc: i think that's going to be separate
15:55:51 <Chuck> q?
15:56:08 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/87
15:56:14 <dj> ... so i'd encourage people to have another look through
15:56:26 <dj> ... top-level comments can go on the github, document, etc
15:56:41 <dj> ... then pick your favorite guideline/outcome, and think about how you'd structure that
15:56:46 <Chuck> q+ to emphasize the aspect of structure
15:57:09 <Chuck> ack Ch
15:57:09 <Zakim> Chuck, you wanted to emphasize the aspect of structure
15:57:09 <sarahhorton> The default requirements could be thought of as prerequisites, and not meeting any one those requirements a critical error
15:57:29 <dj> Chuck: in this conversation, we've been using Text Alternatives to show examples
15:58:06 <dj> ... you don't have to use Text Alternatives as your lens; you can pick any other that's appealing to you
15:58:14 <Chuck> q?
15:58:22 <dj> q+
15:58:40 <Chuck> ack dj
15:58:46 <Chuck> dj:  Scribe change needed.
15:59:09 <kirkwood> present+
15:59:16 <dj> alastairc & Chuck: going to ad-hoc exercises now, agenda over
15:59:47 <Graham> bye everypne
15:59:48 <dj> rrsagent, generate minutes
15:59:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/28-ag-minutes.html dj
15:59:55 <Graham> lso just in case:
15:59:58 <Graham> present+
16:01:38 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/silver/wiki/Conformance-Proposals-2018-to-present
16:02:52 <alastairc> https://www.w3.org/TR/wcag3/#guidelines
16:09:25 <Sam> Sam has joined #ag
16:13:16 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/discussions/87
16:13:35 <ToddL> ToddL has joined #ag
16:18:22 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag3/wiki/Text-appearance-and-semantics-guideline-subgroup
16:21:18 <alastairc> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/blob/main/guidelines/respec-config.js
16:26:29 <Francis_Storr> present+
16:26:36 <Francis_Storr> dang
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