16:58:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-at
16:58:15 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/22-aria-at-irc
16:58:23 <jugglinmike> rrsagent, make log public
16:58:33 <jugglinmike> Zakim, start the meeting
16:58:33 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:58:34 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
16:58:47 <jugglinmike> meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
16:59:09 <Joe_Humbert> Joe_Humbert has joined #aria-at
17:01:49 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
17:01:55 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
17:01:59 <jugglinmike> present+ Joe_Humbert
17:02:04 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
17:02:05 <murray_moss> murray_moss has joined #aria-at
17:02:08 <jugglinmike> present+ murray_moss
17:02:13 <jugglinmike> present+ James_Scholes
17:02:22 <Joe_Humbert> present+
17:02:48 <jugglinmike> present+ howard-e
17:05:14 <howard-e> howard-e has joined #aria-at
17:05:33 <howard-e> present+
17:06:02 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-at
17:06:05 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
17:06:10 <Matt_King> present+
17:07:06 <jugglinmike> Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
17:07:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
17:07:25 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll move forward as proposed
17:07:35 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: No meeting Thursday May 30
17:07:47 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next community group meeting: Wednesday June 5
17:08:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday June 10
17:09:11 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: Confirming that the next BTT working group meeting is scheduled for Wednesday, June 12
17:09:20 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current status
17:09:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: 5 plans in candidate review: alert, command button, link, toggle button, radio group
17:09:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Still prodding people for review and feedback
17:09:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Goal: 6 recommended plans by June 30
17:10:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: 1 plan in draft review: Modal dialog
17:10:13 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next up: action menu button.
17:10:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The APG task force made a pretty significant change to the menu button examples. Previously, they did not have "aria-expanded" set to "false" when the menu was closed
17:11:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: the task force revised its prior guidance and now has "aria-expanded" on it at all times
17:11:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm wondering if IsaDC can get the code of the latest example updated to use the latest APG code
17:11:44 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: When was the change implemented?
17:12:01 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In December or November. Definitely in the fourth quarter of 2023
17:12:18 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: This is going to be kind of really disruptive
17:13:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It changes two things. We need to change the code that's used in the test case for menu button. I hope that's still a pretty light lift. It also changes the assertions which are applicable--it will add a third assertion to the existing two ("The state of 'collapsed' is conveyed")
17:13:30 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Would it be easier to update the code in-place rather than change the entire example
17:13:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll leave it to you to make that decision
17:14:15 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This applies to all three menu button examples. The one that is currently refactored is the "element.focus"
17:14:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think the intent was to do "active descendant". It would actually be preferable to do "active descendant" first
17:15:35 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: has the script that pulls in the examples been updated to reflect the new directory structure in APG?
17:15:47 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I ask because this is something we haven't done in a long time
17:16:07 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I was talking about make-v2
17:16:19 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: That script picked the wrong directory
17:16:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It shouldn't be doing a fuzzy match on the directory name; it should be doing an exact match
17:17:45 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I may have used the script incorrectly
17:20:15 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: This script was authored by Bocoup
17:20:22 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: If it isn't working, please raise an issue so Bocoup can assist
17:21:17 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I just verified the problem. I will file the issue, and Bocoup can take it from there
17:26:49 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: This entails a lot of work
17:27:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We can move it down the calendar and move up the "color viewer slider"
17:27:34 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I can begin work on this issue, but I don't expect to complete it by next week
17:27:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll update the plan
17:28:11 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: When we do modify the menu button examples, should I modify all three or just the ones we're intending to refactor?
17:28:30 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We should modify all three
17:29:35 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I'd like to make the reference changes in a pull request and someone else could refactor the tests
17:30:16 <jugglinmike> Topic: NVDA Bot response collection issue
17:30:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It appears that the response-collection system is still returning data that appears to be coming from the old version of NVDA
17:31:24 <jugglinmike> howard-e: Corey at Bocoup has already replied to both issues listed on the agenda, and they are continuing to investigate
17:33:19 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Some of the results were wrong, as well
17:33:43 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I noticed that some of the responses were inaccurate, as well
17:35:04 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I corrected those responses myself
17:36:13 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: should I input the AT response for every command in the sequence, or for just the final command in the sequence?
17:36:35 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I noticed that the bot records AT responses for every command in the sequence
17:36:55 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Yeah, it's expected that the bot is going to do that
17:38:38 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: IsaDC, I think we should take Joe_Humbert's approach for now, so that we're not blocked by issues with the bot. That means manually inputting the correct AT responses
17:39:16 <jugglinmike> Topic: Check in on dialog testing
17:39:32 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have two tests with conflicting VoiceOver results
17:39:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: First, on test number 6
17:39:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is issue 1071
17:40:07 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: Issue 1071
17:40:12 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1071
17:41:11 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: We close the dialog, and VoiceOver exhibits the same issue we saw with Link
17:41:28 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: the cursor is not at the bottom of the "main" landmark
17:41:45 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I feel it's valid to say "main" because you are traveling back into the main landmark
17:42:00 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: That's why I put "no unexpected behaviors"
17:42:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It is a tiny bit overly verbose to me, but I understand why it's acceptable
17:42:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: every screen reader is a little different in when they announce whenever you jump over a landmark boundary
17:43:21 <jugglinmike> Joes_Humbert: we could treat this as present but not a problem, or we could interpret it as "overly verbose" (like we did with Link)
17:43:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Based on Joe_Humbert's logic, it doesn't seem invalid
17:44:00 <jugglinmike> murray_moss: It sounds verbose to me, but not incorrect. I also recognize that the additional verbosity can be helpful for students
17:44:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: as long as excess verbosity is not problematic, then we don't classify it as a problem
17:44:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think in this case, we probably don't want to do that
17:44:57 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I think it's unnecessary, but I can change my results to match Joe_Humbert's
17:45:07 <jugglinmike> s/Joes_Humbert/Joe_Humbert/
17:45:37 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The difference between "annoying" and plain "wrong" crosses an editorial line for us here
17:46:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Let's go with IsaDC changing her results
17:46:25 <jugglinmike> subtopic: Issue 1072
17:46:27 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1072
17:47:05 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: The sequence number we get from the app when raising an issue is wrong
17:47:14 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we have a bug in our issue-raising button
17:47:32 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I can log that bug. I have a theory for what's going wrong, as well
17:48:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So it's not test number 14. It's the test for going to the top of the dialog
17:48:37 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: It's actually test number 5
17:48:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'll edit the title of the issue
17:49:14 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: VoiceOver's cursor's doesn't move to the top of the dialog
17:49:27 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: If I remember correctly, it stays at the "add" button
17:49:40 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: That matches my experience
17:50:24 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I reported the "additional undesirable behavior" of "other"
17:50:40 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think that's the right thing to do here because it's essentially the lack of a desirable behavior
17:50:50 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I didn't know how to report it
17:51:16 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: This would effect test number 6 as well because it's a similar result
17:51:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Do we have the right command?
17:51:31 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Yes, we do
17:51:48 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: Yes. I checked because it seemed as though it wasn't doing anything
17:52:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think IsaDC's result is correct: this is a severe interoperability problem, and we should report it as a side-effect
17:56:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I almost think we should modify the test to more precisely verify this
17:57:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I don't want to put a failure in front of Apple if that failure is just a result of a dependency on a different bug
17:58:37 <jugglinmike> murray_moss: Are folks using an extended keyboard that has a "home" key?
17:58:53 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I plug in an external keyboard that has a physical "Home" key
17:59:28 <jugglinmike> murray_moss: I tried to do this with a non-extended keyboarding using "Fn" and "Left Arrow", and I got the command to work
17:59:52 <jugglinmike> murray_moss: I'm using 14.5
18:00:04 <jugglinmike> Joe_Humbert: I was on 14.4.1
18:01:53 <jugglinmike> Topic: VoiceOver bot status
18:02:04 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: VoiceOver support is available on the staging server
18:02:13 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: It's using macOS version 13
18:02:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's somewhat old; I wonder if we can update it
18:02:35 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: We can look into that
18:02:54 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
18:02:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Joe_Humbert, IsaDC, murray_moss, James_Scholes, howard-e, Matt_King
18:02:56 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:02:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/22-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
18:03:04 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:03:04 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at
18:03:07 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
18:03:07 <RRSAgent> I see no action items