IRC log of matf on 2024-05-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:00:21 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/15-matf-irc
13:00:25 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:00:26 [Zakim]
please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ
13:00:34 [JJ]
Zakim, this is MATF 15 May 2024
13:00:34 [Zakim]
got it, JJ
13:01:23 [JJ]
agenda+ Github for Success Criteria
13:01:36 [audrey]
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13:02:05 [Carolina]
present+
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13:02:07 [JJ]
zakim, agenda?
13:02:07 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
13:02:08 [Zakim]
1. 1.4.10 Reflow [from JJ]
13:02:08 [Zakim]
2. 1.4.12 Text Spacing [from JJ]
13:02:08 [Zakim]
3. 1.4.13 Content on Hover or Focus [from JJ]
13:02:08 [Zakim]
4. 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks [from JJ]
13:02:09 [Zakim]
5. Github for Success Criteria [from JJ]
13:02:14 [julianmka]
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13:02:17 [JJ]
Zakim, clear agenda
13:02:17 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
13:02:20 [Joe_Humbert]
present+
13:02:21 [JJ]
zakim, agenda?
13:02:21 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
13:02:23 [julianmka]
present+
13:02:25 [JJ]
agenda+ Github for Success Criteria
13:02:30 [Karla]
present+
13:02:32 [JJ]
agenda+ 1.4.13 Content on Hover or Focus
13:02:34 [Mick]
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13:02:40 [JJ]
agenda+ 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks
13:02:45 [JJ]
agenda+ 2.4.5 Multiple Ways
13:02:46 [Mick]
present+
13:02:46 [audrey]
present+
13:02:53 [JJ]
zakim, agenda?
13:02:53 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
13:02:54 [Zakim]
1. Github for Success Criteria [from JJ]
13:02:54 [Zakim]
2. 1.4.13 Content on Hover or Focus [from JJ]
13:02:54 [Zakim]
3. 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks [from JJ]
13:02:54 [Zakim]
4. 2.4.5 Multiple Ways [from JJ]
13:04:29 [JJ]
scribe: Mick
13:04:58 [hdv]
present+
13:05:30 [JJ]
move to next agendum
13:05:30 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Github for Success Criteria -- taken up [from JJ]
13:06:40 [Mick]
JJ: Set up Github for Success Criteria. Sharing setup.
13:06:40 [Mick]
Repository named MATF.
13:07:14 [AlainVagner]
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13:07:19 [Mick]
JJ: Holds file for list of files for WCAG level A to map.
13:07:56 [Mick]
JJ: On the left hand side we have the markdown and on the right is on the rendered page.
13:08:40 [Mick]
JJ: Documenting insights for all the success criteria we have done so far.
13:09:00 [Joe_Humbert]
q+
13:10:19 [Mick]
Joe_Humbert: Question - will this appear in the content for each page? Should this be a GitHub issue and what we draft for mapping should be on the page instead? That's what is done in the AWG.
13:10:46 [Mick]
Joe_Humbert - that way we're not having direct conversations in the files.
13:11:26 [Mick]
JJ: Good point. Will look into other repositories.
13:11:36 [Devanshu]
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13:11:46 [Devanshu]
present+
13:12:47 [Mick]
hdv: I like GitHub, quite use to it. Some people find hard to work with, hit and miss. This way is quite flexible. This is what accessibility and performance task force is working.
13:13:10 [hdv]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/ also has all of its content in Markdown files on GitHub
13:13:49 [Mick]
JJ: GitHub issues could be a way for to replace the comments in the excel
13:13:59 [hdv]
q+
13:14:05 [julianmka]
q+
13:14:13 [Joe_Humbert]
q-
13:14:30 [Mick]
hdv: We can use issues for these meetings as well.
13:15:16 [hdv]
ack me
13:15:19 [hdv]
ack j
13:15:56 [hdv]
[the github bot I mentioned lives here https://github.com/dbaron/wgmeeting-github-ircbot/ ]
13:17:16 [Mick]
Joe_Humbert - happy to create issues from comments over the next few weeks.
13:18:21 [hdv]
[example of automatically posted minutes https://github.com/openui/open-ui/issues/959#issuecomment-1834438876]
13:18:23 [JJ]
move to next agendum
13:18:23 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- 1.4.13 Content on Hover or Focus -- taken up [from JJ]
13:20:32 [Mick]
JJ: Interesting thing here is how we match pointer hover to apps when the main input is touch. Keyboard focus is less common and customizable on apps.
13:20:59 [Mick]
JJ: So far we've it as No as applicable to mobile web and mobile native.
13:21:22 [Jamers]
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13:21:30 [Jamers]
present+
13:21:48 [Mick]
JJ: Comment from Joe on the sheet: There is a long press gesture on both iOS and Android. This could become the equivalent of "hover". Apple did have 3D touch at one time, but abandoned it. They still control the IP for 3D touch so it could be used again
13:22:49 [Mick]
JJ: Should we say it's not applicable or it can be applicable with some adaptations?
13:23:04 [julianmka]
q+
13:23:37 [Mick]
audrey: I think it is still applicable with adaptations. I think it deserves some research in where it can be applicable and tested
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13:25:42 [Mick]
JJ: Would people agree that long press is equivalent to hover.
13:26:12 [Mick]
audrey: Not sure if they're the same - long press is more I want to show something than hover.
13:26:23 [Jamers]
+1 to Audrey
13:26:40 [JJ]
ack julianmka
13:27:17 [Jamers]
+1 to research and use cases across platforms
13:27:45 [Devanshu]
q+
13:27:55 [Mick]
julianmka: I think there is a lot of similarity between what is revealed on long press and what is revealed on hover.
13:28:05 [Jamers]
q+
13:28:17 [JJ]
ack Devanshu
13:28:23 [Mick]
JJ: In web hover is usually to reveal tooltips, long press is usually to do an action.
13:29:49 [Mick]
Devanshu: Touch exploration setting should be explored.
13:30:40 [JJ]
ack Jamers
13:31:24 [Joe_Humbert]
q=
13:31:29 [Joe_Humbert]
q+
13:32:04 [Mick]
Jamers: Has anyone tested tooltips on mobile web ? if that's a similar functionality with long press that is something worth thinking about
13:32:13 [JJ]
ack Joe_Humbert
13:33:17 [Mick]
Joe_Humbert: In my company, for tooltips nothing appears on hover on focus, it has to be on tap or via keyboard key.
13:34:00 [Mick]
JJ: Perhaps we say "Yes" for applicable to mobile web.
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13:34:41 [Mick]
JJ: Anyone connected there mouse to mobile device
13:34:46 [Joe_Humbert]
Q+
13:35:11 [Mick]
Jamers: Yes, not sure how common the use case is for this as you've to put on accessible touch at the same time.
13:35:24 [Jamers]
correction: assistive touch
13:35:40 [JJ]
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13:35:50 [hdv]
s/accessible/assistive
13:35:52 [Mick]
Joe_Humbert: I've tried using a mouse in the past but it wouldn't work - without assistive touch
13:36:02 [Mick]
Thanks Jamers
13:36:02 [JJ]
present+
13:36:35 [Mick]
Jamers: Works with assistive touch.
13:36:40 [Joe_Humbert]
q-
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13:37:46 [Mick]
JJ: Be interesting if anyone can research long press versus hover for the next meeting.
13:38:03 [JJ]
move to next agendum
13:38:03 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks -- taken up [from JJ]
13:38:31 [Mick]
JJ: This is also an exception in section 508 and EN standards
13:39:44 [Mick]
JJ: Yes for applicable to mobile web, and Yes but different to web for applicable to mobile native.
13:40:13 [Mick]
JJ: Note from Joe: semantic markup, navigation methods (screen reader). We would need to push on google to provide better keyboard support a la iOS full keyboard access
13:40:22 [Jamers]
q+
13:40:42 [Mick]
JJ: Note form Alain: Should we also mention iOS containers
13:41:42 [Mick]
JJ: Apple does this in the navigation bar. But still not sure if you can jump via shortcuts from container to container
13:42:18 [Mick]
@JJ: In the discussion column: The Section 508 standards for software list as an exception.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​ However can still be done and could be merit in doing so.
13:42:20 [Mick]
CC: We usually have tab bar navigations with 4-5 tabs for native and hamburger menus on mobile web. I don't think a bypass block is needed in those cases.
13:42:58 [Mick]
JJ: In native there is not much buttons in a navigation bar, and less tabs in a tab bar - less need to skip content.
13:43:08 [JJ]
ack Jamers
13:44:16 [Joe_Humbert]
q+
13:44:21 [Mick]
Jamers: I'm looking at the WCAG content and it says "Small repeated sections such as individual words, phrases or single links are not considered blocks for the purposes of this provision."
13:45:07 [Joe_Humbert]
https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG22/quickref/?showtechniques=241#bypass-blocks
13:46:15 [Mick]
Jamers: Native apps versus native screens conversations needs to happen.
13:47:40 [Jamers]
set of native apps vs set of native app screens
13:48:13 [JJ]
ack Joe_Humbert
13:49:28 [Mick]
Joe_Humbert: In the success criteria they have sufficient techniques that reference landmarks and headings.
13:49:54 [Mick]
JJ: Landmarks would be similar to containers
13:51:50 [Mick]
JJ: Frame techniques and hamburger menus would also apply to mobile web.
13:53:37 [Mick]
Jamers: Why are we not considering sets of native screens in the same way as web pages on a website?
13:54:17 [Mick]
JJ: I'm not sure either. We can get this as a topic for the next meetings.
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13:56:08 [AlainVagner]
a+
13:56:09 [AlainVagner]
q+
13:56:14 [JJ]
ack AlainVagner
13:57:10 [Mick]
AlainVagner: For me this has strong impact on Multiple Ways. Multiple ways on a set of screens I get, but not so much a set of apps. So this could effect many criteria.
13:57:27 [Mick]
JJ: It will effect at least 4 success criteria.
13:57:54 [Mick]
JJ: Next meeting in 3 weeks
13:58:21 [Joe_Humbert]
I will miss the first 2 weeks in June, but I will work on stuff offline
13:59:08 [Mick]
JJ: Nice to get feedback on GitHub and how we should use it. Will explore with more working groups on how they use it.
13:59:17 [audrey]
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13:59:46 [JJ]
Zakim, list participants
13:59:46 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been JJ, RacheleD, Carol, AA, julianmka, Joe_Humbert, Mick, Devanshu, quintinb, Carolina, Karla, present, hdv, Double_a, audrey, Jamers
14:00:29 [JJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:00:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/15-matf-minutes.html JJ
14:37:41 [JJ]
Zakim, this is MATF 15 May 2024
14:37:41 [Zakim]
got it, JJ
14:37:46 [JJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:37:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/15-matf-minutes.html JJ