15:58:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-editors
15:58:32 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/13-aria-editors-irc
15:58:32 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:58:33 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA Editors
15:58:50 <dmontalvo> zakim, agenda?
15:58:50 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
15:58:51 <Zakim> 1. [new] css-aam (via aria #2155) [from agendabot]
15:58:51 <Zakim> 2. [continue] monorepo hackathon [from agendabot]
15:58:51 <Zakim> 3. [continue] review stale github issues (aria #2151) [from agendabot]
15:58:51 <Zakim> 4. [continue] Remove abbr elements aria #2113 [from agendabot]
15:58:52 <Zakim> 5. [continue] aria-common #109 remove/replace aria-wg-active.md and [from agendabot]
15:58:52 <Zakim> 6. [continue] respec dark mode (aria #2133 etc) [from agendabot]
15:58:52 <Zakim> 7. [continue] modernizing aria.js (aria-common #104 & PR #106) [from agendabot]
15:58:52 <Zakim> 8. [on Hold] roll out prettier setup - tracked via aria-common#99 [from agendabot]
15:58:52 <Zakim> 9. [on Hold] spec markup for advice for AT (jnurthen) [from agendabot]
16:01:46 <pkra> pkra has joined #aria-editors
16:01:56 <pkra> present+
16:02:02 <pkra> scribe: pkra
16:02:36 <pkra> zakim, agenda ?
16:02:36 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
16:02:37 <Zakim> 1. [new] css-aam (via aria #2155) [from agendabot]
16:02:37 <Zakim> 2. [continue] monorepo hackathon [from agendabot]
16:02:37 <Zakim> 3. [continue] review stale github issues (aria #2151) [from agendabot]
16:02:37 <Zakim> 4. [continue] Remove abbr elements aria #2113 [from agendabot]
16:02:38 <Zakim> 5. [continue] aria-common #109 remove/replace aria-wg-active.md and [from agendabot]
16:02:38 <Zakim> 6. [continue] respec dark mode (aria #2133 etc) [from agendabot]
16:02:38 <Zakim> 7. [continue] modernizing aria.js (aria-common #104 & PR #106) [from agendabot]
16:02:38 <Zakim> 8. [on Hold] roll out prettier setup - tracked via aria-common#99 [from agendabot]
16:02:38 <Zakim> 9. [on Hold] spec markup for advice for AT (jnurthen) [from agendabot]
16:03:35 <scotto> scotto has joined #aria-editors
16:03:50 <dmontalvo> present: Scott, Peter, Valerie, Daniel
16:04:12 <dmontalvo> present+ JAmes
16:04:58 <pkra> zakim, next item
16:04:58 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- [new] css-aam (via aria #2155) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:05:28 <pkra> spectranaut: this is for a later time
16:05:53 <pkra> james: css issues have come up again and again. Editors would be the right place to start this discussion.
16:06:23 <pkra> ... to start, who will work on it.
16:06:50 <pkra> scotto: talking to aaron about it. he suggested html-aam to expand.
16:07:07 <pkra> ... not ideal maybe but most of all I would need someone to help out with this.
16:07:28 <pkra> jnurthen: any particular idea?
16:07:36 <pkra> scotto: not immediately.
16:08:09 <pkra> ... it should probably be an implemter
16:08:15 <pkra> james: maybe raheem?
16:08:39 <pkra> scotto: that could work.
16:08:58 <pkra> james: let's think about it
16:09:02 <pkra> zakim, next item
16:09:02 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- [continue] monorepo hackathon -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:09:19 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria-editors
16:10:09 <pkra> pkra: is there anything we need to do to prepare?
16:10:17 <pkra> ... maybe from w3c side?
16:10:25 <pkra> daniel: there's precedence in the epub space.
16:10:54 <pkra> ... I'm looking into the actions.
16:11:25 <pkra> ... can't really touch TR but we could try an editors draft of a spec we feel comfortable with
16:11:31 <pkra> ... echidna would be a space to use.
16:11:56 <pkra> ... I'm thinking getting one spec that publishes often as a first step
16:12:35 <pkra> spectranaut: not sure we will know the scope of work until we get started.
16:13:07 <pkra> ... maybe it's just a lack knowledge about the publishing process since Daniel is on top of that.
16:13:44 <pkra> daniel: when we have the repo structure we're comfortable with, publish to github, that's a good basis. The w3c side can come later.
16:14:06 <pkra> ... the other stuff worries me more, e.g., integrating aria-common.
16:15:33 <pkra> pkra: great. I just want to avoid sitting there next week and being blocked for a long time.
16:15:42 <pkra> daniel: maybe we start with a branch on Monday.
16:16:35 <pkra> pkra: sounds good to me.
16:17:02 <pkra> ... focusing on github publication, focus on initial specs, then moving along
16:17:10 <pkra> zakim, next item
16:17:10 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- [continue] review stale github issues (aria #2151) -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:18:00 <pkra> pkra: aside, https://www.w3.org/2024/04/29-aria-editors-minutes.html doesn't seem to have anything
16:18:13 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:18:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/13-aria-editors-minutes.html jamesn
16:19:24 <pkra> james: will meet with spectranaut to start a bit.
16:20:54 <pkra> .. let's do a few issues
16:22:07 <pkra> pkra: #79 - cell/gridcell
16:22:19 <pkra> scotto: implementations seem to be fine now.
16:22:37 <pkra> ... it's now more about author guidelines to decide on allowed attributes.
16:23:07 <pkra> ... we also need to do the same for row; there's even a note.
16:23:20 <pkra> james: what problems do we solve if we do this?
16:23:31 <pkra> ... does it make things better?
16:24:39 <pkra> scott: maybe it's worth documenting what user agents do, that they're mostly interchangable.
16:24:49 <pkra> ... more of a clarification, keep both.
16:25:04 <pkra> ... if someone wants to deprecate them, let them do the work.
16:26:53 <pkra> pkra: aria #80. presentation vs none
16:26:55 <pkra> james: close it.
16:27:47 <pkra> pkra: #283 aria-sort on more than 1 column
16:29:53 <pkra> ... pinged Adrian if he is interested in taking this on (from Stefan)
16:30:08 <pkra> pkra: #322 new page load
16:30:17 <pkra> scotto: Melanie might be interested.
16:30:30 <pkra> ... the new history API was partially about this.
16:30:41 <pkra> james: this seems like a really useful thing to have.
16:30:56 <pkra> ... if it just works on history, that would be less of a chance of developer screwing it up.
16:31:54 <scotto> https://github.com/WICG/navigation-api/
16:33:26 <pkra> pkra: pinged Mel Sumner
16:33:41 <pkra> ... aria #427  radio groups name required
16:33:47 <pkra> scotto: would like to talk about this again
16:33:56 <pkra> ... people from ACT rules are confused on aria vs wcag failure.
16:34:03 <pkra> ... this, dialog, tables came up.
16:34:11 <pkra> ... they are aria failures but wcag is less clear.
16:34:30 <pkra> ... then why is aria requiring them when wcag / html doesn't. etc.
16:34:44 <pkra> ... I think it would help if they're not MUST but SHOULD
16:35:02 <pkra> james: what benefits are there for users when not adding a name?
16:35:28 <pkra> scotto: I've seen it when buttons are very understandable, e.g., clear mailing list sign-up.
16:35:40 <pkra> ... heading just before table.
16:36:07 <pkra> ... dialog - best practices to have name the same as heading  at start.
16:36:14 <pkra> ... why force the extra work
16:36:23 <pkra> james: the name-from heading would solve that at least.
16:36:36 <pkra> ... then browser/AT can decide when to reduce the reduncancy.
16:36:57 <pkra> spectranaut: sounds like a larger problem where some things should have SHOULD not MUST.
16:37:02 <pkra> ... should we broaden this?
16:37:27 <pkra> james: while I sympathize, I think it could make things worse when people don't do it for situations where they really should name them
16:38:21 <pkra> scotto: I had similarly thoughts but ended up thinking that HTML and ARIA are too strong. Where it really matters, WCAG will cover it.
16:38:44 <pkra> ... I've moved away from this in ARIA-in-html because it creates too much confusion
16:39:20 <pkra> .... a good auditor would call them out; but ARIA feels like overreaching
16:39:35 <pkra> ... then there's ARIA asking for more than HTML
16:39:47 <pkra> spectranaut: can we talk more on the group?
16:39:59 <pkra> ... let's make it a larger issue.
16:40:09 <pkra> scotto: let's close it and make a new, larger isse.
16:40:42 <pkra> james: sounds good.
16:40:53 <pkra> ... I'm feeling more sympathetic to this after checking APG
16:41:19 <pkra> pkra: aria #432 4-way picker
16:42:06 <pkra> ... I like this. Would love a label for these kinds of issues -- there's interest but not enough from implementers.
16:42:57 <pkra> spectranaut: sounds good
16:43:08 <pkra> james: feature + needs explainer sounds like a good combo
16:45:57 <pkra> spectranaut: maybe "needs champion"?
16:46:10 <pkra> ... and explainer for that.
16:49:35 <pkra> pkra: i like that. We have others that have less interest, e.g., #559 on "call to action"
16:49:40 <pkra> spectranaut: let's close that.
16:49:43 <pkra> james: +1
16:49:45 <pkra> pkra: done.
16:51:46 <pkra> spectranaut:  we should track what we've discussed so we don't re-do issues.
16:53:57 <pkra> ... I'll add a "needs champion" label
16:54:01 <pkra> zakim, end meeting
16:54:01 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Scott, Peter, Valerie, Daniel, JAmes
16:54:03 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
16:54:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/13-aria-editors-minutes.html Zakim
16:54:10 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, pkra; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:54:11 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-editors