IRC log of aria on 2024-05-09

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:58:58 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/09-aria-irc
16:59:04 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:59:05 [Zakim]
Meeting: ARIA WG
16:59:06 [jamesn]
agendabot, find agenda
16:59:06 [agendabot]
jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:59:07 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240509T130000/
16:59:07 [agendabot]
clear agenda
16:59:07 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/yw5jajwh
16:59:07 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/ms24tc2t
16:59:09 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests
16:59:13 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:59:15 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> ARIA Monorepo https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Monorepo-Project
16:59:18 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> ARIA should clarify distinction between “contents exposed as descendant text nodes” vs “name from contents” (Was: listitem should include name from Contents or name prohibited) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2160 and -> td, th naming doesn't align with ARIA
16:59:22 [agendabot]
… https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/543
16:59:25 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Question: time can have a name from author? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2075
16:59:28 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Trim whitespace from computed accessible name/description https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/95
16:59:31 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> CORE-AAM has "user agents must not expose non-global, not support attributes on roles", but there is no related author error in ARIA? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2168
16:59:35 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> prevent use of aria-hidden=true on document root elements https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1880
16:59:38 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Trim whitespace from computed accessible name/description https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/95
17:00:21 [spectranaut_]
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17:00:29 [katez]
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17:00:34 [spectranaut_]
agenda?
17:00:35 [katez]
present+
17:00:42 [spectranaut_]
present+
17:01:06 [giacomo-petri]
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17:01:06 [Summer]
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17:02:10 [aardrian]
present+
17:02:12 [melsumner]
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17:02:19 [giacomo-petri]
present+
17:02:21 [melsumner]
present+
17:02:26 [ray-schwartz]
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17:02:26 [Summer]
present+
17:02:28 [Francis_Storr]
present+
17:02:43 [ray-schwartz]
present+
17:03:29 [knights]
present+
17:03:45 [spectranaut_]
scribe: spectranaut_
17:03:49 [spectranaut_]
zakim, next item
17:03:49 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/yw5jajwh -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:04:47 [spectranaut_]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2178
17:05:24 [sarah]
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17:05:49 [spectranaut_]
spectranaut_: I'll take this
17:05:58 [spectranaut_]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2177
17:06:31 [spectranaut_]
aardrian: related to the linked PR, we talked about it couple weeks ago
17:06:51 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: agenda it
17:06:59 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: might be strictly editorial, but agenda for now
17:07:09 [spectranaut_]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2176
17:07:22 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: sounds like editorial
17:07:51 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: but lets discuss it in a meeting anyway
17:07:59 [spectranaut_]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2175
17:08:29 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: looks non controversial
17:08:34 [spectranaut_]
giacomo-petri: I can do this
17:08:43 [spectranaut_]
zakim, next item
17:08:43 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/ms24tc2t -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:08:51 [fofila2]
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17:09:12 [spectranaut_]
https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/pull/230
17:09:21 [spectranaut_]
spectranaut_: I'll review
17:09:33 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: and also we have james craigs, so that is good
17:09:36 [spectranaut_]
zakim, next item
17:09:36 [Zakim]
agendum 2 was just opened, spectranaut_
17:09:47 [spectranaut_]
zakim, close this item
17:09:47 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
17:09:48 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:09:48 [Zakim]
3. -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests [from agendabot]
17:09:50 [spectranaut_]
zakim, next item
17:09:50 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:10:07 [jamesn]
https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:10:44 [spectranaut_]
zakim, close this item
17:10:44 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
17:10:45 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:10:45 [Zakim]
4. -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates [from agendabot]
17:10:46 [spectranaut_]
zakim, next item
17:10:47 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:11:24 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: we have a deep dive planed for the 23rd of May on ARIA notify
17:11:34 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: now shipped behind a flag in chromium in nightly
17:12:40 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: does anyone want to schedule a deep dive for 16th?
17:12:49 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: seems like there is a number of people out, lets skip next week
17:12:52 [spectranaut_]
zakim, next item
17:12:52 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- -> ARIA Monorepo https://github.com/w3c/aria/wiki/Monorepo-Project -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:13:43 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: this is for your information, we are planning on trying to move ARIA specs to a mono repo. we have a few folks working on that on the week of the 20th.
17:13:54 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: you may notice a bunch of activity in the repos, do not be alarmed
17:14:51 [spectranaut_]
spectranaut_: please weigh in if you have any concerns/ideas/preferences
17:15:21 [spectranaut_]
spectranaut_: see the link in the wiki, feel free to edit with thoughts
17:15:23 [spectranaut_]
zakim, next item
17:15:23 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- -> ARIA should clarify distinction between “contents exposed as descendant text nodes” vs “name from contents” (Was: listitem should include name from Contents
17:15:26 [Zakim]
... or name prohibited) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2160 and -> td, th naming doesn't align with ARIA -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:16:04 [fofila]
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17:16:24 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: (reads issue)
17:16:40 [scotto]
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17:16:48 [scotto]
present+
17:16:49 [jamesn]
q?
17:17:41 [melsumner]
should it be name from author anyway? shouldn't it just be name from content??
17:17:56 [sarah]
q+
17:17:58 [spectranaut_]
scotto: the issue as I understand it is that listitem are only specified as getting name from author, so they wouldn't receive their name from content. I'm coming into this from the other end, which is why do we even let these things get name from author. so there is like one screen reader that allows teh name from author to get exposed and only if it is focused by tab key
17:18:08 [spectranaut_]
scotto: similar to paragraph, which can't be name from author
17:18:39 [spectranaut_]
scotto: we should clarify this, either list items get name from content, or, come to some decision of why list items are allowed to have name from author if it doesn't work anywhere
17:18:50 [spectranaut_]
scotto: makes sense if there is a long list item, but if you want a short name for it
17:18:56 [spectranaut_]
scotto: but if it doesn't work, what is the point
17:19:10 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: I possibly have changed my opinion (from supporting it)
17:19:38 [spectranaut_]
scotto: there was was a shift over time that I never really fully ack'd that in the ax tree, the text of the element is often promoted to it's accessible name
17:19:46 [spectranaut_]
scotto: but that is just the CONTENT, it's not an accessible name
17:19:59 [spectranaut_]
scotto: this always felt like... that makes sense to someone, but it never made sense to me
17:20:07 [jamesn]
q?
17:20:11 [spectranaut_]
scotto: these two things (name from content and content) seem a bit conflated
17:20:17 [jamesn]
ack sarah
17:20:55 [spectranaut_]
sarah: I was going to say that another use case (good or bad) , because we don't have interactive list role, people use list and list item, and in that scenario name from author gets important
17:21:11 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: what I'm hearing from that, is that we can't use it because people are using it practice
17:21:22 [spectranaut_]
scotto: just because people are using it doesn't mean it works
17:21:32 [spectranaut_]
scotto: only a few instances did the name from author get read
17:21:42 [aardrian]
Q+
17:21:44 [spectranaut_]
sarah: when the author name is used, there is secondary actions in there
17:22:06 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: would secondary actions help?
17:22:17 [spectranaut_]
sarah: I think more relevant would be interactive list?
17:22:32 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: but once we have a secondary action.... we could do no?
17:22:41 [spectranaut_]
sarah: no, we had a deep dive on this
17:22:47 [spectranaut_]
sarah: we need a new role
17:22:47 [jamesn]
ack aardrian
17:23:22 [spectranaut_]
aardrian: sarah was outlining.. not a valid use of name from author, but maybe an invalid use of list roles. maybe there is a value in a single access grid like role. I'm on board conceptionally
17:23:38 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: how do we move that forwar
17:23:58 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: in order to resolve list items should be named
17:24:13 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: do we need to do things before we prohibit name from author??
17:24:17 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: should this be deprecated
17:24:57 [spectranaut_]
scotto: for what its worth, I think we should pause on this for right now, we need james to weigh in, and I'm hesitant to make any changes until we decide are we going to create a iterative list item
17:25:44 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: lets pause on list item, and wait until james craig is back to discuss the larger issue
17:25:48 [spectranaut_]
zakim, next item
17:25:48 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- -> Question: time can have a name from author? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2075 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:26:16 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: no idea why time can have a name from author, right scott?
17:26:18 [spectranaut_]
scotto: yeah
17:26:29 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: anyone know why we allow time to be named by author
17:26:37 [spectranaut_]
scotto: I have no memory of discussing this
17:26:46 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: anyone reject from removing name from author from time
17:26:50 [aardrian]
To adjust how I was minuted above, "...single _axis_ grid like role. I'm on board..."
17:26:55 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: we can put it in the obsolete list
17:27:08 [melsumner]
+1 for obsolete list
17:27:42 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: should we deprecate the role....?
17:27:49 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: no just kidding
17:28:01 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: does anyone want to do this
17:28:27 [spectranaut_]
spectranaut_: does it have implementation follow up?
17:28:32 [spectranaut_]
scotto: nope
17:28:38 [spectranaut_]
scotto: only author
17:28:48 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: so its a small issue
17:29:07 [spectranaut_]
ray-schwartz: I'll take it!
17:29:35 [spectranaut_]
Zakim, next item
17:29:35 [Zakim]
agendum 8 -- -> Trim whitespace from computed accessible name/description https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/95 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:30:47 [dmontalvo]
present+ Dniel
17:30:49 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: does anyone know what the none breaking space thing is
17:31:11 [spectranaut_]
mel: we did have some discussion, we decided ot use CSS spec author's white space definition
17:31:25 [spectranaut_]
mel: I'm pretty sure we decided not to provide our own definition
17:31:41 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: some places in the acc name spec we say that we trim whitespace, in this case we do not say it
17:32:31 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: the specific issue is that when we look at the name and description computation, for example, when you have aria label -- you trim the white space when it is only white space
17:32:42 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: after it's returned, do we trim the front and back or not?
17:32:50 [spectranaut_]
mel: whats the impact of this on a user
17:33:08 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: impact on the testing more than user?
17:33:40 [spectranaut_]
spectranaut_: if all the browsers are triming it, and it doesn't cause problems, then we should spec it
17:33:48 [scotto]
q+
17:33:51 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: joanie thinks we should trim
17:34:06 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: but she says at the end of the calculation we should trim it
17:34:19 [jamesn]
ack scotto
17:34:39 [spectranaut_]
scotto: I've seen this being important for users, keeping white space when trying to string together aria-labelledby strings
17:34:54 [spectranaut_]
scotto: otherwise it will take the first and last words and make a garbage word
17:34:55 [aardrian]
Q+
17:35:20 [spectranaut_]
scotto: if acc name or the aria spec should even call out, if you are stringing together multiple sources, put a space between them
17:35:57 [melsumner]
isn't that what space separated provides? I think we can just make ACCNAME consistent.
17:36:08 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: when you have multiple labelbys, the spec says you should add a space between them
17:36:18 [spectranaut_]
scotto: how new is that?
17:37:20 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: is there any use case where we want the spaces to remain? the final things returned by the accname calc, do you ever want spaces at the start or end of that
17:37:35 [jamesn]
ack aardrian
17:37:52 [spectranaut_]
aardrian: if you have a compound accessible name that is pulling in accessible names, then there might be a use case where you want there to be spaces between each of the entries of the compound accessible name
17:38:15 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: I'm wonder if there is other places in the algorithm that take care of that
17:38:52 [spectranaut_]
aardrian: at least in firefox, idk from chrome, if you have two label elements, they are concated with no space in between
17:39:16 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: the last time we talked about, there were 9 open white space issues.. this will be the 10th
17:39:30 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: maybe we need to work out all the ackname white spaces issues, and tackle them all together
17:39:38 [aardrian]
That feels deep-divey?
17:39:44 [spectranaut_]
melsumner: there hasn't been progress on this, i'll try to get it worked out in the next couple of weeks
17:40:35 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: lets deep dive after that
17:40:40 [spectranaut_]
Zakim, next item
17:40:40 [Zakim]
agendum 9 -- -> CORE-AAM has "user agents must not expose non-global, not support attributes on roles", but there is no related author error in ARIA?
17:40:42 [Zakim]
... https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2168 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:42:13 [spectranaut_]
spectranaut_: talks about the spec
17:42:22 [spectranaut_]
spectranaut_: this makes non supported like prohibited
17:42:49 [spectranaut_]
spectranaut_: from an author/validator point of view -- is there a reason they are treated different?
17:43:02 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: stating this explictly seems fine
17:44:07 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: I'm pretty sure validators produce an error for this?
17:44:11 [spectranaut_]
spectranaut_: inconsistently
17:44:26 [spectranaut_]
scotto: if I put aria-expanded on a paragraph, axe will throw an error
17:44:39 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: pretty sure validators don't have an issue
17:44:48 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: I think it's "editorial" because this implied
17:45:02 [spectranaut_]
scotto: since we have validators throwing the error
17:45:06 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: any one object ot this
17:45:26 [spectranaut_]
eloisa: would this be considered a good first issue?
17:45:30 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: yes!
17:45:53 [spectranaut_]
eloisa: I'll take it
17:46:18 [spectranaut_]
giacomo-petri: there is no rule for this right now, but I can bring it up at the next ACT meeting to make sure there is a rule for this
17:47:05 [spectranaut_]
zakim, next item
17:47:05 [Zakim]
agendum 10 -- -> prevent use of aria-hidden=true on document root elements https://github.com/w3c/aria/pull/1880 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:47:34 [spectranaut_]
scotto: this is ... yeah
17:47:45 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: aaron has concerns and wants consensus
17:48:26 [spectranaut_]
scotto: this issue about whether or not this role holds true for document or html element of an iframe
17:48:44 [spectranaut_]
scotto: my point is that it should be forbidden there too
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17:49:19 [spectranaut_]
scotto: if someone is pulling in a document in an iframe, and aria-hidden is true, then the iframe will contain nothing but be exposed. if you wanted to expose the iframe --- putting hidden inside the iframe is not solving the problem
17:50:12 [sarah]
present+
17:50:14 [spectranaut_]
scotto: I won't say what the iframe should do
17:50:34 [AzPrison]
hey need help
17:51:39 [AzPrison]
Robert
17:52:42 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: so how do we convince aaron?
17:52:49 [spectranaut_]
scotto: I think I just need to remind him to look at the issue
17:53:03 [spectranaut_]
cynthia: I'm happen to talk to aaron abou tit
17:53:34 [AzPrison]
"/me" robert
17:54:10 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: people used to hide iframes all the time, in the bad old days, I don't think it's something we do before
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17:54:45 [AzPrison]
Is this working can you see my messages?
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17:56:28 [spectranaut_]
zakim, next item
17:56:28 [Zakim]
agendum 11 -- -> Trim whitespace from computed accessible name/description https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/95 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:57:10 [spectranaut_]
zakim, close this item
17:57:10 [Zakim]
agendum 11 closed
17:57:11 [Zakim]
I see nothing remaining on the agenda
17:57:23 [AzPrison]
Zakim what the fuck
17:57:37 [spectranaut_]
zakim, end meeting
17:57:37 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been StefanS, katez, aardrian, giacomo-petri, Rahim, jamesn, Summer, Matt_King, sarah, CurtBellew, Mario_B, HaTheo, CoryJoseph, Francis_Storr,
17:57:40 [Zakim]
... spectranaut_, melsumner, ray-schwartz, knights, scotto, Dniel
17:57:40 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:57:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/09-aria-minutes.html Zakim
17:57:49 [Zakim]
I am happy to have been of service, spectranaut_; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
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