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17:04:01 <jugglinmike> rrsagent, make log public
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17:04:17 <jugglinmike> Zakim, start the meeting
17:04:17 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:04:19 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
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17:04:34 <jugglinmike> Meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
17:04:40 <howard-e> present+
17:04:42 <jugglinmike> present+ jugglinmike
17:04:44 <jugglinmike> scribe+ jugglinmike
17:04:52 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria-at
17:05:08 <jugglinmike> present+ Matt_King
17:05:30 <jugglinmike> Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
17:05:34 <jugglinmike> https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/wiki/May-8%2C-2024-Agenda
17:06:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Requests for changes to agenda?
17:06:38 <jugglinmike> present+ Hadi
17:07:04 <jugglinmike> present+ IsaDC
17:07:19 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I'd like to add issue #1062 to our discussion of the dialog testing
17:07:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday May 13
17:07:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: No meeting Thursday May 16 (I will be at Access U)
17:07:58 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next community group meeting: Wednesday May 22 (I will not be able to attend, though)
17:08:06 <jugglinmike> Topic: Current status
17:08:18 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have 5 tests plans in "recommended" phase, our goal is 6
17:08:27 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: 5 plans in candidate review: alert, command button, link, toggle button, radio group
17:08:36 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: 1 plan in draft review: Modal dialog
17:08:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Goal date is June 30
17:08:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Next up: action menu button.
17:09:01 <jugglinmike> Topic: Check in on dialog testing
17:09:45 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: Feedback: "Open a modal dialog" (Modal Dialog Example, Test 1, V24.05.02)
17:09:51 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1062
17:10:16 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: the output that was reported didn't match the version of NVDA that I was using
17:10:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Did you change the output?
17:10:35 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: No, I wanted to bring it up here to learn what would be the most appropriate response
17:10:57 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Maybe changing it isn't a good idea because the version is going to be the version that the NVDA Bot uses
17:11:10 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So then we would have to analyze the output based on that older version
17:11:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is the newer output going to cause the test outcomes to be different from the older output?
17:11:38 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Yes because NVDA fixed many issues that we observed before
17:11:49 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: For instance, it used to say "dialog" twice, but now, it does not
17:12:11 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: So the change in behavior is significant
17:12:31 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: jugglinmike: Can we have an update on the NVDA version? And if so, when?
17:13:50 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: Yes, if all goes well, we should be able to do this update in less than a day.
17:14:32 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: With any change to NVDA, there is a risk that the new version interferes with the functionality of the NVDA AT Driver Server which we are maintaining
17:15:00 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: Since this is the first time we've updated NVDA for automation, we don't yet have a good idea of how likely it is for the new version to cause problems
17:15:17 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: Over time, we will develop an intuition on that.
17:16:01 <jugglinmike> jugglinmike: For the moment, it will be wise to allow for delays that would come from troubleshooting problems like that
17:16:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay. So, what should we do in the mean time?
17:16:52 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: The changes are quite significant
17:17:20 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Okay, then maybe we should put the NVDA testing on hold for one week and then make a decision based on where we stand with the new version's availability
17:18:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Let's use this issue as a base for asynchronous decision-making. James_Scholes can report on the new version of NVDA's compatibility with the NVDA AT Driver server, and jugglinmike can post an estimate on the timeline for updating ARIA-AT App with the new NVDA version
17:18:27 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Sounds good
17:18:32 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: Hadi's question
17:18:46 <jugglinmike> Hadi: We open a dialog box and we're checking if role information is conveyed
17:19:05 <jugglinmike> Hadi: one test for Chrome and JAWS is to open the dialog box in PC mode
17:19:24 <jugglinmike> Hadi: the question is "does JAWS switch from virtual mode to PC mode?"
17:19:40 <jugglinmike> Hadi: This makes sense when JAWS starts in Virtual Mode, but not when it starts in PC mode
17:19:44 <jugglinmike> present+ Hadi
17:20:00 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: is that for test 1
17:20:03 <jugglinmike> Hadi: Yes
17:20:16 <jugglinmike> s/for test 1/for test 1?/
17:21:08 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In test 1, under JAWS, the first one is "space with virtual cursor active". That one has the mode switch, and it should
17:21:49 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The next command is "space with PC cursor". That one, the "switch mode" assertion is there
17:21:56 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think it has to be removed
17:22:23 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I think it makes sense for it to be the other way around. I have seen the AT switch from PC mode to virtual mode
17:23:04 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In this case, it should not. If the focus was going to content (e.g. a link), it would stay in virtual cursor mode, but if the focus was going to an input (as it is in this case--an edit field), the PC cursor should be active
17:23:51 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It looks like it's there for NVDA as well...
17:25:09 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So we need an exception
17:25:28 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: When we raise an issue from the app, we get different test numbering
17:26:42 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: The app needs more fine-grained issue reporting functionality. I'm going to file an issue with more detail on this
17:27:23 <jugglinmike> Hadi: In the second test, when the dialog starts open with a focus on the "cancel" button. When I am pressing "enter" on the "cancel" button, JAWS is entering a kind of weird mode which is not acting properly
17:27:35 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I reloaded JAWS, but the behavior persisted
17:28:01 <jugglinmike> Hadi: Do you folks ever run into situations where JAWS is misbehaving and not reading correctly as a result?
17:28:30 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Sometimes. I usually close the window which holds the test, then re-open, press the "run setup script" button, and try agian
17:28:34 <jugglinmike> s/agian/again/
17:28:52 <jugglinmike> Hadi: I tried those things. Should I mention that in my report, or should I restart my computer?
17:29:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I'm trying that right now, and JAWS isn't doing anything unusual for me
17:29:26 <jugglinmike> Hadi: Probably the problem is that JAWS is not in a good state
17:29:33 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It seems to be very consistent for me right now
17:30:57 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: We'll be testing that today, as well. If we run into any problems, I'll report that in a new issue
17:31:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Is May 17 completion possible?
17:31:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We have a little bit of a wrench thrown into the plan with the NVDA automation update
17:32:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Maybe we can at least get JAWS and VoiceOver done in time for May 17
17:32:38 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: I think that should be possible by the next meeting, two weeks from today
17:32:42 <jugglinmike> Hadi: Same for me
17:32:49 <jugglinmike> Topic: Menu button feedback
17:32:59 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: James Craig raised a bunch of issues, which is great
17:33:19 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I commented on all of them, but there's one in particular that I think we need to discuss here
17:33:38 <jugglinmike> Subtopic: Feedback: "Navigate to the first item in a menu" (Action Menu Button Example Using aria-activedescendant, Test 18, V22.03.17) · Issue #1060 · w3c/aria-at
17:33:46 <jugglinmike> github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/issues/1060
17:34:11 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: James had three points where he argued that certain assertions were invalid and should be removed
17:34:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: first, "position of focused item" -- expectation filed separately as #1058
17:34:46 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: second, "number of items in menu is never conveyed while switching between items in a menu."
17:35:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: third, "menu item role is never repeated while switching between items in a menu, native or web. It would be redundant."
17:36:05 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I find the suggestion that we should convey the position and the total as being out-of-sync with other screen readers and also with general screen reader users' expectations
17:36:44 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I thought we were all aligned on the idea that, given the semantics of MUST and SHOULD, that generally information about set sizes ought to be asserted with SHOULD
17:37:02 <jugglinmike> IsaDC: Yeah, if we were talking about "MAY", that would be a problem
17:37:14 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Okay, that makes sense
17:37:22 <jugglinmike> present+ James_Scholes
17:37:52 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: It doesn't seem like a screen reader should be repeating the role inside each one of these containers
17:38:16 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: It's difficult because there are cases where screen readers DO do that, and you might find it off-putting if they didn't. Like in a tab list, for example
17:38:30 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Or what JAWS and NVDA would call a tab control
17:39:06 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're also starting to see things like "close" buttons in tab lists, so there might be other things in there
17:39:24 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's currently not valid, to be clear, but it might become valid with ARIA Actions
17:39:49 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I think it would be actively annoying if the AT announced that everything in a menu is a menu item, though
17:40:00 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: So do we want this to be a "MAY"?
17:40:22 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: Well, I really think it SHOULDN'T do that kind of menu item announcement
17:40:51 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: I think that if we didn't include it at all, then someone may be more likely to highlight it as extra verbosity if they encountered it
17:41:14 <jugglinmike> James_Scholes: but most testers would probably not consider if excessively verbose if we explicitly allowed it with a MAY assertion
17:41:48 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: This is just when navigating from one to another, but if you are READING the item, then it ought to tell you (since you might not remember or you might be distracted)
17:41:54 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Any objections?
17:42:03 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll stick with that.
17:42:35 <jugglinmike> Topic: Enhancements to APG support tables
17:43:26 <jugglinmike> present+ Lola_Odelola
17:43:49 <jugglinmike> Lola_Odelola: are we still targeting Global Accessibility Awareness Day for public announcements?
17:44:28 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Given that multiple people are attending Access U next week, I think we are going to drop that deadline
17:45:12 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Everyone's feedback on the tables has been incorporated, and I think they are much better as a result of their participation
17:45:30 <jugglinmike> Topic: Upcoming Test Queue Changes
17:45:50 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: In the next couple weeks, an important change is coming to help us do testing while test plans are in the "recommended" phase
17:46:05 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: right now, we don't require testers to use a specific version of an AT
17:46:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: When a test plan is recommended, and a new version of an AT comes out, we need to re-run the test plan with that new version specifically
17:46:45 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's not currently possible, but the next version of the test queue will support it
17:47:02 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: We're looking at the functionality being available in the "sandbox" server on next Wednesday
17:47:26 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: That's Wednesday, May 15
17:47:48 <jugglinmike> howard-e: I think we're planning on the Wednesday after that, which is May 22
17:48:16 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: Understood. IsaDC and James_Scholes, you can put that date on your calendar for testing
17:48:28 <jugglinmike> Topic: AT Driver Update
17:49:58 <jugglinmike> Lola_Odelola: I expected to have a automation sub-group meeting immediately before the BTT in order to prepare. That didn't happen this week, so I wanted to check if there is a scheduling problem
17:50:29 <jugglinmike> Matt_King: I think this is just a problem with this particular month and its impact on the two meetings' schedules
17:52:20 <Sam_Shaw> jugglinmike: People are hearing the term Glass pane for the first time so I'll define it. When you run the AT Driver in safari, you get a notice that says you can't interact with the content:
17:53:07 <Sam_Shaw> jugglinmike: This present problems for us because we are using automation to run a test that is in the glass pane state.
17:53:42 <Sam_Shaw> jugglinmike: We brought this issue to the BTT group
17:54:40 <Sam_Shaw> jugglinmike: However we are going to automate AT Driver with webdriver, and Apple is not going to like it
17:54:58 <Sam_Shaw> jugglinmike: We asked other browser developers if they plan to implement a glass pane
17:55:19 <Sam_Shaw> jugglinmike: We have not heard back from Chrome, Firefox said no they don't plan to do this
17:56:26 <Sam_Shaw> Matt_King: I'm really interested in Apples response, James craig they weren't going to support BTT as you can do with with Apple scripts
17:57:28 <Sam_Shaw> Lola: I would hesitate to put to much into a response from Apple, because the glass pane presents other issues that they are facing
18:02:00 <jugglinmike> Zakim, end the meeting
18:02:00 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been howard-e, jugglinmike, Matt_King, Hadi, IsaDC, James_Scholes, Lola_Odelola
18:02:02 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:02:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/08-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
18:02:10 <jugglinmike> RRSAgent, leave
18:02:10 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
18:02:10 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
18:02:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-at