13:56:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
13:56:09 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/03-rdf-star-irc
13:56:35 <AndyS> zakim, this is RDF-star Semantics TF
13:56:35 <Zakim> got it, AndyS
13:58:49 <MacTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/05/02-rdf-star-minutes.html
13:58:50 <MacTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/05/09-rdf-star-minutes.html
13:58:50 <MacTed> meeting: RDF-star Semantics TF
13:58:54 <MacTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:58:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/03-rdf-star-minutes.html MacTed
13:58:59 <MacTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:00:01 <TallTed> present+ TallTed, pfps, AndyS
14:00:16 <TallTed> present+ enrico
14:01:23 <TallTed> present+ niklasl, AZ
14:02:52 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:02:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/03-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:03:59 <TallTed> i/previous meeting/scribe: ?scribe?
14:04:00 <TallTed> i/previous meeting/chair: ?chair?
14:04:04 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:04:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/03-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:04:14 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
14:04:41 <TallTed> topic: discussion on profiles (many-to-many transparent and many-to-one opaque) and their exact definition
14:06:18 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
14:06:33 <TallTed> s/?chair?/enrico
14:08:35 <enrico> present+
14:08:37 <thomas> thomas has joined #rdf-star
14:08:37 <enrico> q?
14:11:39 <enrico> q+
14:15:00 <enrico> ack enrico
14:15:35 <AndyS> <<( :s :p :o )>>   rdf:subject :s ; rdf:property :p ; rdf:object :o .
14:15:42 <thomas> q+
14:15:59 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
14:16:05 <Souri> present+
14:16:14 <AndyS> ack thomas
14:17:03 <niklasl> We also have the question about that the rdf:type of rdf:reifies is. owl:ObjectProperty in OWL Full, I presume...?
14:17:27 <TallTed> s/about that the/about what the
14:17:46 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:17:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/03-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:21:27 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
14:23:44 <AZ> What did AndyS write. I was not connected to IRC
14:23:56 <thomas> <<( :s :p :o )>>   rdf:subject :s ; rdf:property :p ; rdf:object :o .
14:24:08 <AZ> thx
14:27:23 <AZ> in RDF 1.1, one can write:  (:s :p :o) rdf:subject :s; rdf:predicate :p; rdf:object :o . Would you say that this is redundent, since :s is obviously the first element of a list of 3, so it must be the subject?
14:28:24 <AndyS> q+
14:29:36 <AndyS> q-
14:30:20 <AndyS> Can already infer "non-triples" in D-entailment.
14:35:51 <niklasl> q+
14:37:14 <doerthe> doerthe has joined #rdf-star
14:37:16 <thomas> q+
14:37:31 <doerthe> present+
14:37:41 <AZ> <<(:s :p :o)>> rdf:_1 :s; rdf:_2 :p; rdf:_3 :o .  is this equally redundent as rdf:subject, etc.?
14:38:04 <enrico> q+
14:38:12 <enrico> ack nikasl
14:38:20 <enrico> ack niklasl
14:41:03 <doerthe> q+
14:41:18 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:41:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/03-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:41:38 <AZ> present+
14:42:09 <thomas> present+
14:42:27 <enrico> ack thomas
14:42:53 <doerthe> I am surprised, but I really agree with you thomas :D
14:44:32 <niklasl> Like others have repeatedly said, a literal "<s> <p> <o>"^^rdf:Triple is opaque...
14:45:00 <doerthe> niklasl: but that is not queryable
14:45:08 <niklasl> No.
14:46:00 <AZ> Literals and their inner structure are querying to the extent that SPARQL provides datatype-specific functions or keywords (e.g. REGEX for strings)
14:46:12 <thomas> but could be made queryable i reckon
14:46:27 <doerthe> mmm, granted, AZ, yet, not elegant
14:46:29 <AZ> absolutely, thomas!
14:47:07 <enrico> <<(:s :p :o)>> rdf:_1 :s; rdf:_2 :p; rdf:_3 :o .  is this equally redundent as rdf:subject, etc.?
14:48:00 <AZ> q+
14:48:56 <enrico> :x rdf:_1 :s; rdf:_2 :p; rdf:_3 :o .
14:49:17 <enrico> entails <<(:s :p :o)>> a rdfs:resource
14:49:19 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
14:49:23 <Souri> present+
14:49:37 <enrico> <<(:s :p :o)>> owl:same-as :x.
14:50:05 <thomas> but :x is just a list ?!
14:50:18 <AZ> I don't understand, but doerthe is in the queue
14:50:19 <thomas> sorry, a bag
14:50:34 <doerthe> yes, but I want you to answer as well :)
14:50:34 <niklasl> it's a bag container yes, nothing more.
14:50:35 <AndyS> One of bag/seq/alt
14:50:56 <doerthe> it's fine if you answer first, then I can think about this discusion
14:50:57 <niklasl> ah true, we don't know the rdf:type.
14:51:20 <enrico> ack enrico
14:51:23 <enrico> ack az
14:51:31 <doerthe> q-
14:51:49 <doerthe> I do not want to stop the flow, I am interested in this discussion :)
14:52:12 <doerthe> q+
14:58:23 <AZ> q+
14:58:35 <enrico> ack doerthe
15:02:10 <enrico> <<( :s :p :o )>> a :TripleTerm .
15:02:10 <enrico> :TripleTerm owl:hasKey (rdf:subject rdf:predicate rdf:object) .
15:03:26 <enrico> q+
15:06:32 <AZ> one possibility is indeed going towards modal logic
15:06:45 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #rdf-star
15:06:57 <AZ> but there could be other ways
15:06:59 <fsasaki> regrets+
15:07:08 <niklasl> ... kind of like when a singleton property is used as a predicate in an asserted triple .... ("kind of")?
15:09:28 <enrico> q?
15:11:27 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:11:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/03-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:12:06 <AZ> are you sure this would be isomorphic (even when considering RDFS etc)?
15:13:14 <enrico> q?
15:13:19 <enrico> ack AZ
15:13:58 <doerthe> to decide, I want to fully understand, and that already helped :)
15:14:31 <niklasl> +1 exploring these concerns is clarifying
15:14:51 <enrico> ack enrico
15:15:42 <AZ> There are logics that are not modal but allow multiple local interpretations (e.g. DFOL, DDL, and anything with local model semantics)
15:19:50 <Souri> q+
15:19:56 <doerthe> mmm, and would you want to have multiple local interpretations? As an option? Based on the predicate for example?
15:21:01 <doerthe> (currently I am just enjoying playing with the ideas ;) )
15:21:07 <enrico> ack souri
15:21:17 <niklasl> ...but what is the domain of rdf:edge ?
15:21:43 <niklasl> And where is the set of use cases for those?
15:21:44 <Souri> q+
15:21:55 <doerthe> q+
15:23:51 <enrico> graph      ::= ( triple | reifier rdf:reifies tripleTerm  | reifier rdf:edge opaqueTripleTerm )*
15:26:28 <enrico> <<:a :b :c>>
15:26:37 <enrico> <<":a :b :c">>
15:27:40 <thomas> <<( :a :b :c )>> instead of << :a :b :c >> I assume?
15:28:04 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:28:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/03-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:28:12 <AndyS> What is <<:a :b :c>> translated to?
15:41:46 <doerthe> thank you all for the explanations, that really helps me
15:54:11 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:54:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/03-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed