IRC log of aria-dive on 2024-05-02
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:58:01 [RRSAgent]
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- logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/02-aria-dive-irc
- 15:58:07 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 15:58:08 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
- 15:58:30 [jamesn]
- title: ARIA Deep Dive - Should form field in cells have name computed from table/grid headers
- 15:58:32 [jamesn]
- meeting: ARIA Deep Dive - Should form field in cells have name computed from table/grid headers
- 16:02:46 [giacomo-petri]
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- 16:03:38 [aardrian6]
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- 16:03:41 [ray-schwartz]
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- 16:03:50 [aardrian6]
- present+
- 16:03:53 [jamesn]
- present+
- 16:04:11 [spectranaut_]
- present+
- 16:04:18 [ray-schwartz]
- present+
- 16:04:29 [giacomo-petri]
- present+
- 16:05:57 [jamesn]
- scribe: jamesn
- 16:06:24 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: assume everyone has read the comment
- 16:06:49 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: take accname and add another step. If there is a field with no accname but sufficient context then give it that accname
- 16:07:16 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: has to have a col/row header associated - if both then would concatenate
- 16:07:35 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: broadly my goal is to provide a guessable accname for voice users
- 16:07:52 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: and for screen reader users
- 16:08:26 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: and also to provide some redundancy for screen reader users would need coordination with AT vendors to coordinate
- 16:09:26 [jamesn]
- matt: I read the proposal and understand what you are proposing. Do you think this discussion needs to revolve around the pros and cons of whether this is done at all?
- 16:09:44 [Mario_B]
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- 16:09:47 [jamesn]
- matt: if we don't do this what would we do to solve the problem. What would you like the scope to be?
- 16:10:07 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: figured folks who are familiar could do that
- 16:10:36 [CurtBellew]
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- 16:10:53 [jamesn]
- matt: what are the plusses of an automatically generated name
- 16:11:08 [jamesn]
- matt: versus the cons especially around edge cases.
- 16:12:23 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: edge cases... and corner cases where authors would override
- 16:12:49 [jamesn]
- matt: this is intended to be a fallback name calculation
- 16:12:50 [giacomo-petri]
- q+
- 16:13:34 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: i work with authors all the time with these data sttructures who don't want a visible label
- 16:14:01 [jamesn]
- giacomo-petri: are you saying that this fallback is a valid solution or is this a fallback that would be managed by user agents
- 16:14:49 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: initial thought is that this is just a fallback. but then maybe if this gets iimplemented then would maybe create a wcag technique
- 16:15:21 [jamesn]
- matt: seems like a good approach
- 16:15:28 [jamesn]
- q+
- 16:15:34 [jamesn]
- ack giacomo-petri
- 16:16:07 [jamesn]
- matt: still womdering whether or not we want it to be an explicit wcag technique
- 16:16:46 [jamesn]
- jamesn: would also need stuff in HTML-AAM too
- 16:16:49 [jongund]
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- 16:17:21 [jongund]
- q+
- 16:17:30 [jamesn]
- https://www.w3.org/TR/html-aam-1.0/#accname-computation
- 16:19:54 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: take a little further and look at headers and id. When it comes to contructs that don't have great support. my model is looking at simpler tables
- 16:21:00 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: do we run at what support looks like now. or do we wait for browsers to implement that stuff and build it in to that
- 16:21:27 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: my thought is that browsers are already responsible for coming up with that.
- 16:21:29 [jamesn]
- q+
- 16:21:34 [jamesn]
- ack me
- 16:21:36 [jamesn]
- q+
- 16:22:31 [jamesn]
- jongund: there seems to be a difference between grids and static tables. tables would use tabs, grids generally arrow keys. in a static table what do screen readers do now if there is no label
- 16:22:56 [jamesn]
- ... if using table commands get the label
- 16:23:05 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: propose grids and tables are the same
- 16:23:38 [jamesn]
- ... if via cell navigation you are already hearing this new info - need to discuss with AT how they would do that
- 16:24:31 [jamesn]
- jongund: seems like in the past accname type issues - browser developers were hesitant to make changes
- 16:24:37 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: understand that concern
- 16:24:40 [jamesn]
- q+
- 16:24:43 [jamesn]
- ack jongund
- 16:26:13 [jamesn]
- jamesn: not super concerned about this
- 16:26:24 [jamesn]
- jongund: would we limit to native HTML
- 16:27:20 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: th and role columnheader/rowheader are functin
- 16:27:20 [jamesn]
- ally the same thing
- 16:27:22 [jamesn]
- q+
- 16:28:16 [jamesn]
- jongund: don't think it should be a fallback
- 16:28:40 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: techniques includes failures and sufficient techniques
- 16:29:14 [giacomo-petri]
- q+
- 16:29:18 [spectranaut_]
- scribe: spectranaut_
- 16:29:30 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: how do we do it so that AT can make it less verbose?
- 16:30:06 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: you can do this today, and if you did do it today, how can we communicate to AT that they should not communicate this information
- 16:30:19 [CurtBellew]
- q+
- 16:30:22 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: in the accessibility API, the AT will not know how the accessible name got there
- 16:30:27 [spectranaut_]
- jamesn: they will have to use context clues
- 16:30:48 [spectranaut_]
- matt: this is good for ARIA-AT
- 16:31:03 [jamesn]
- ack me
- 16:31:48 [jamesn]
- matt: good for ARIA-AT
- 16:32:02 [jamesn]
- jongund: already deal with this
- 16:32:15 [jamesn]
- matt: but right now they don't deal with this really
- 16:32:39 [jamesn]
- matt: the only way we can figure that out is by having a set of test cases
- 16:32:52 [jamesn]
- matt: we can write a should expectation in ARIA AT not a must
- 16:33:02 [jamesn]
- giacomo-petri:
- 16:33:48 [jamesn]
- giacomo-petri: was going to say the input name should be the same as the row/column header. You have the repetition right now. Of course would be necessary for the future.
- 16:34:42 [jamesn]
- giacomo-petri: lets assume this proposal comes off. If AT would support this then at the very end this solution would be more accessible. With this solution if AT avoid the repetiition then it would be much less verbose
- 16:35:37 [jamesn]
- matt: if this is adopted then it doesn't change anything for AT developers. I think they have to solve the double speak problem today
- 16:36:21 [jamesn]
- matt: this is just 1 more way of a browser calculating an explicit name. Any of todays explicit name techniques then AT already has to do things today to avoid extra speech
- 16:36:26 [jamesn]
- q+
- 16:36:32 [jamesn]
- ack giacomo-petri
- 16:37:11 [jamesn]
- ack CurtBellew
- 16:37:22 [jongund]
- q+
- 16:37:42 [jamesn]
- CurtBellew: Q about a scenario. What do you do when there are multiple controls or a radio group in a cell
- 16:37:54 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: if you have multiple then you get the same accname
- 16:38:58 [jamesn]
- giacomo-petri: if AT that supports this structure by announcing once. What happens if the author is customizing the accname?
- 16:40:25 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: if there are 2 controls and neither has an accname. they both get the same accname. If 1 has an accname and the other doesn't then 1 would follow this.
- 16:40:54 [StefanS]
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- 16:40:55 [jamesn]
- ack jongund
- 16:41:01 [StefanS]
- q+
- 16:41:03 [jamesn]
- ack me
- 16:41:09 [Mario_B]
- q+
- 16:41:15 [StefanS]
- present+
- 16:41:19 [jamesn]
- jongund: more things will get accessible names
- 16:41:28 [giacomo-petri]
- q+
- 16:41:36 [CurtBellew]
- present+
- 16:41:55 [jamesn]
- StefanS: want to ask if thisn't more a discussion about what screen readers should do not what screen readers should do
- 16:42:19 [giacomo-petri]
- <td><input type="text" ... aria-label="input 1"></td><td><input type="text" ...></td>
- 16:43:40 [jamesn]
- StefanS: should behave like a table - what a screen reader can do is look at the relationship of the cell.... more a requirement for screen reader builders
- 16:43:43 [jongund]
- q+
- 16:43:58 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: no this is not for just screen readers. The accname should be in the browser
- 16:44:14 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: redundant fields.... authors should already be doing that
- 16:45:05 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: someone should be raising the issue that all fields had the same accname - authors can do all sorts of things.
- 16:45:47 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: if someone has the same button 10 times then this doesn't change that
- 16:46:23 [jamesn]
- ack StefanS
- 16:46:26 [jamesn]
- ack Mario_B
- 16:47:00 [jamesn]
- q+ Mario_B
- 16:47:04 [jamesn]
- ack giacomo-petri
- 16:48:19 [jamesn]
- giacomo-petri: we are saying that AT should end the redundancy. Have some cells with an input with no accname but other table cells with multiple inputs then need an accname. Would the AT provide inconsistent feedback. Then the AT would no longer be able to recognise that the AT has been cusotmized
- 16:49:01 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: the author is always required to provide an accname. if this lands with support then doesn't change the fact that authors need to provide accessible names
- 16:49:16 [jamesn]
- giacomo-petri: talking about consistency
- 16:50:01 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: if i am navigating table cells using a virtual cursor then already a verbose experience. Then will hear the accessible name of the fields
- 16:50:14 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: would need conversations
- 16:50:20 [jamesn]
- ack jongund
- 16:50:50 [jamesn]
- jongund: Q? for screen reader users - would row or column number be useful?
- 16:50:55 [jamesn]
- matt: no
- 16:51:12 [jamesn]
- Mario_B: users decision to hear the number or now
- 16:51:24 [jamesn]
- s/now/not/
- 16:51:30 [jamesn]
- ack Mario_B
- 16:52:28 [jamesn]
- Mario_B: propose to have exact order for accname. If have in a table column headers and row headers we need to say in which order we take these headers into the accname. It is important as the screen readers can then more easily decide how to mute some announcements
- 16:53:40 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: would use columnheader and rowheader to build the name. The screen reader would then be able to decide if they want to announce it all or try to concatenate. If the screen reader wants to split that would be up to the screen reader
- 16:53:50 [jamesn]
- aardrian6: feel like it is a heavier lift to do that
- 16:55:24 [jamesn]
- general consensus is that we should go forward with this
- 16:55:58 [CurtBellew]
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- 16:58:57 [jamesn]
- zakim, end meeting'
- 16:58:57 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'end meeting'', jamesn
- 16:59:06 [jamesn]
- zakim, end meeting
- 16:59:06 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been aardrian, jamesn, spectranaut_, ray-schwartz, giacomo-petri, StefanS, CurtBellew
- 16:59:09 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 16:59:10 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/02-aria-dive-minutes.html Zakim
- 16:59:17 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, jamesn; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
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- 17:00:00 [jamesn]
- s/scribe: spectranaut_/scribe+ spectranaut_
- 17:00:12 [jamesn]
- rrsagent, make minutes
- 17:00:13 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/02-aria-dive-minutes.html jamesn
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- present+
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