IRC log of aria-at on 2024-05-02
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 19:01:30 [RRSAgent]
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- 19:01:35 [RRSAgent]
- logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/05/02-aria-at-irc
- 19:01:37 [jugglinmike]
- rrsagent, make log public
- 19:01:46 [jugglinmike]
- Zakim, start the meeting
- 19:01:46 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, make logs Public
- 19:01:48 [Zakim]
- please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jugglinmike
- 19:01:55 [jugglinmike]
- present+ jugglinmike
- 19:02:01 [Joe_Humbert]
- Joe_Humbert has joined #aria-at
- 19:02:03 [jugglinmike]
- scribe+ jugglinmike
- 19:02:25 [jugglinmike]
- Meeting: ARIA and Assistive Technologies Community Group Weekly Teleconference
- 19:04:32 [Joe_Humbert]
- present+
- 19:05:19 [Matt_King]
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- 19:05:34 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: Review agenda and next meeting dates
- 19:05:38 [Sam]
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- 19:05:41 [jugglinmike]
- https://github.com/w3c/aria-at/wiki/May-2%2C-2024-Agenda
- 19:05:43 [Sam]
- present+
- 19:06:08 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Would anyone like to add any other topics?
- 19:06:16 [jugglinmike]
- present+ IsaDC
- 19:06:31 [jugglinmike]
- IsaDC: Will we talk about James Craig's feedback on action button?
- 19:06:37 [jugglinmike]
- present+ Matt_King
- 19:07:03 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I wasn't planning on it talking about it today because we still have to tell James that his comments are in regards to an old test plan
- 19:07:18 [jugglinmike]
- IsaDC: Some of the assertions will remain, though
- 19:08:01 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: That's true. I want to point him to one of the new test plans which has similar results. If his issues still stand, then we could make a meaningful topic for next meeting's agenda
- 19:08:09 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Next community group meeting: Wednesday May 8
- 19:08:16 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Next AT Driver Subgroup meeting: Monday May 13
- 19:09:22 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I won't be able to attend the AT Driver subgroup meeting on Monday. I might be able to listen since I will be traveling, but I definitely won't be able to speak
- 19:09:32 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: Current status
- 19:09:38 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Goal: 6 recommended plans by June 30
- 19:09:47 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: We have 5 test plans in candidate review!
- 19:10:18 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: We've made changes in an attempt to address all open issues. It remains to be seen whether the changes actually address the issues, but it's good progress nonetheless
- 19:10:51 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Next up are modal dialog and action menu button
- 19:10:56 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Any questions about any of this?
- 19:11:02 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Hearing none, we'll move on
- 19:11:10 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: Enhancements to APG support tables
- 19:11:20 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Last year, we launched support tables in APG
- 19:11:32 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: We got a little critical feedback--people weren't sure how to use the data
- 19:11:39 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: We're making two changes to address that
- 19:11:54 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: The link in the agenda leads to a preview page which demonstrates what the new support table will look like
- 19:13:48 [jugglinmike]
- https://deploy-preview-317--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/patterns/radio/examples/radio-activedescendant/
- 19:14:56 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: On the new APG example page, after the "about this example" heading (and a bunch of level-2 headings), you'll find the "assistive technology support table"
- 19:15:08 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: We also discussed this table on Tuesday in the Authoring Practices Guide call
- 19:15:29 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: There were two bits of feedback. Nobody had problems with the design of the table itself--the feedback was on the content
- 19:15:45 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: howard-e is taking care of those changes
- 19:16:33 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: the big change with what's currently in production is that this adds a column for "SHOULD HAVE assertions" as well as "MUST HAVE assertions"
- 19:17:13 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: It also gets rid of the problem with the current table which has "n/a" entries for invalid AT/browser combinations like Safari and JAWS
- 19:18:33 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: In the APG Task Force meeting, we agreed to further modify this patch to change the column titles (e.g. from "MUST behaviors" to "MUST HAVE behaviors"). We also agreed to sort the rows of the table alphabetically (they seem kind of randomly arranged right now)
- 19:18:47 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Does anyone here have any further suggestions for changes?
- 19:19:03 [jugglinmike]
- present+ Michael_Fairchild
- 19:19:14 [jugglinmike]
- Michael_Fairchild: I really like it
- 19:19:28 [jugglinmike]
- IsaDC: The very first cell is empty; I think it should include a column header
- 19:20:00 [howard-e]
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- 19:20:11 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: That sounds good. "Assistive Technology / Browser" might be a bit cumbersome, visually. Do you think it should say "AT/Browser", instead
- 19:20:48 [jugglinmike]
- Joe_Humbert: Currently, due to the contents of the other cells in that column, the very first cell could accommodate the full text "Assistive Technology / Browser"
- 19:21:05 [jugglinmike]
- Michael_Fairchild: I concur; the longer version ought to fit
- 19:21:42 [jugglinmike]
- Michael_Fairchild: the word "supported" is repeated in all of the cells, and it's also implied by the heading above and the context of the table. I wonder if we could remove it--if that would make things less noisy
- 19:21:48 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I would support that
- 19:22:12 [jugglinmike]
- Joe_Humbert: Have you been getting questions about the difference between "MUST" and "SHOULD"?
- 19:22:39 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Yes, and we have a plan for that, but let's consider Michael_Fairchild's feedback before discussing that
- 19:23:28 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Should we use "support for MUST HAVE behaviors" as the column heading?
- 19:23:52 [jugglinmike]
- Joe_Humbert: That would significantly expand the visual width of those columns. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's worth needing
- 19:24:30 [jugglinmike]
- Michael_Fairchild: I don't think the word "support" is really necessary there, even after removing it from the cells, given the context
- 19:25:07 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I like the idea of brevity
- 19:25:55 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I'm also thinking about Joe_Humbert's feedback... The other change is that there's going to be a link just below the heading. That link will lead to a new page--the one I have linked in the agenda and for which I'm still drafting the content
- 19:26:04 [jugglinmike]
- https://deploy-preview-318--aria-practices.netlify.app/aria/apg/about/
- 19:26:14 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: That will help people understand how to use this data
- 19:26:26 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: It's where we'll explain the difference between "MUST" and "SHOULD" behaviors
- 19:26:46 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I'm thinking that the link could be something like "Learn about the meaning of the support tables shown below"
- 19:26:57 [jugglinmike]
- s/support tables/support levels/
- 19:27:11 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: The term "support levels" would help emphasize that the meaning is the level of support
- 19:28:07 [jugglinmike]
- Joe_Humbert: the column title "MUST HAVE behaviors" doesn't tell me what those behaviors are, but I also understand that there's probably too much to say about that to fit in this table
- 19:30:52 [jugglinmike]
- Joe_Humbert: Could we have a deep-link from this page directly to the AT-specific results? Just because if I have to travel through the details page that summarizes ALL ATs, then the navigation is a bit cumbersome since it involves scrolling to the AT in which I'm interested
- 19:31:50 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: One thing we don't do in the reports is organize data by MUST and SHOULD. To be clear: we haven't put a lot of investment into the website for all the different possible use cases
- 19:32:06 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: That's currently appropriate because we haven't had a lot of use of the data, yet
- 19:32:21 [jugglinmike]
- s/use of //
- 19:32:52 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: That will make more sense (and we'll make more investment) over the next year as we start to publish more data
- 19:34:22 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: To summarize--the first column needs a header ("Assistive Technology / Browser"), and the word "supported" should be removed from the cells, and if that affects the visual layout, then consider putting the graphic and the percentage on the same line so that the cells can be shorter
- 19:34:33 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Those are in addition to the changes already discussed in the APG Task Force meeting
- 19:34:54 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: A sixth change which could come later would be to make the AT browser names themselves into links which go to the report site
- 19:37:18 [jugglinmike]
- jugglinmike: Maybe we could also add a link to the column headings themselves, e.g. a "question mark" character as a superscript, that directs to the same new page
- 19:37:26 [jongund]
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- 19:37:51 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: That might be tricky because it would appear inside the iframe
- 19:38:18 [jugglinmike]
- Michael_Fairchild: I don't think that's an issue
- 19:38:56 [jugglinmike]
- Michael_Fairchild: Separately, I'm wondering if the words "MUST" and "SHOULD" will have meaning to non-standards audiences
- 19:40:36 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I think the common definitions of those words are close enough for those audiences
- 19:40:53 [jugglinmike]
- Michael_Fairchild: you're probably right
- 19:41:40 [jugglinmike]
- jugglinmike: Though there's also "required" and "recommended" if we really want alternatives
- 19:42:19 [jugglinmike]
- jugglinmike: To Michael_Fairchild's point, though, capitalizing the words "MUST" and "SHOULD", while typical in specification contexts, might look a little foreign or even off-putting to folks without that experience
- 19:42:29 [jugglinmike]
- Michael_Fairchild: That's a good point
- 19:42:46 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I agree. Let's use normal casing for those.
- 19:43:04 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Also, it seems as though the terms are surrounded in quotation marks. I don't think that's necessary, either
- 19:43:39 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: So, as an amendment to the change we were already considering, these headings should read "Must have behaviors" and "Should have behaviors"
- 19:44:12 [jugglinmike]
- Topic: Dialog test plan
- 19:44:28 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: The R&D version is displayed as "n/a"
- 19:45:12 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: howard-e can you run the script now so that we can add it to the test queue in this meeting?
- 19:45:25 [jugglinmike]
- howard-e: it may have already done the work because I'm seeing it in the table, already
- 19:45:39 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Ah, there it is. Sorry, I was looking at radio, not dialog
- 19:46:33 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I'm getting an error about data representation
- 19:47:00 [jugglinmike]
- howard-e: I'm seeing that, too. I will investigate; it should be a quick fix. In the mean time, you may have to use the link that is in the agenda
- 19:47:15 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I'm going to advance it to "DRAFT"...
- 19:47:40 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I'm getting the same error
- 19:47:55 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: but if we add it to the test queue, then people could look at it there
- 19:48:03 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Let's just walk through this from the link in the agenda
- 19:48:29 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: I'd like to draw folks' attention to a specific test: test number seven
- 19:48:44 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Test number seven is unlike any test we've had before. I hope it's clear to people
- 19:49:48 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: If you're looking at the instructions, they basically say that you're going to open the dialog, navigate to the top (in JAWS and NVDA with CTRL+Home), and then you're going to press the up arrow a couple of times (I wrote "two times" specifically to ensure that there isn't one extra line beyond the edge)
- 19:50:02 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: After that, you will read the current element
- 19:50:39 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: The one and only assertion is that (for JAWS) the position of the virtual cursor is the "add delivery" address heading.
- 19:51:07 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Does anybody have any questions about this test or concerns about the way it's worded or anything like that?
- 19:53:49 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Hearing none, it seems the construction of this test is acceptable!
- 19:54:40 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Okay, we need volunteers for this test plan!
- 19:54:55 [jugglinmike]
- IsaDC: I'm testing with all three screen readers
- 19:55:10 [jugglinmike]
- Joe_Humbert: When do you need the testing done by?
- 19:55:43 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: It would be extremely helpful if we could get these all done in the next couple weeks so that, by mid-May, we have all the test plans we need to hit our target
- 19:55:58 [jugglinmike]
- Joe_Humbert: In that case, I volunteer for VoiceOver and NVDA
- 19:58:06 [jugglinmike]
- howard-e: I'm observing a bug that we've reported previously. I have a quick patch in mind, but I'd like to run it by my team at Bocoup, first. I'll have Carmen keep you posted on the progress there
- 19:58:18 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Would automated results collection fail in this state?
- 19:58:52 [jugglinmike]
- howard-e: I'm unsure of what would happen. I'd recommend waiting until we resolve the issue before initiating an automated AT results collection
- 19:59:08 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: Okay, it's in the test queue, now, so we should be able to add Joe_Humbert
- 20:00:14 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: We still need one JAWS tester. Maybe Alyssa or Hadi will be available for that
- 20:00:53 [jugglinmike]
- Matt_King: But we're out of time for now
- 20:01:28 [jugglinmike]
- Zakim, end the meeting
- 20:01:28 [Zakim]
- As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, Joe_Humbert, Sam, IsaDC, Matt_King, Michael_Fairchild
- 20:01:30 [Zakim]
- RRSAgent, please draft minutes
- 20:01:31 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/02-aria-at-minutes.html Zakim
- 20:01:38 [Zakim]
- I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
- 20:01:38 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #aria-at
- 20:01:46 [jugglinmike]
- RRSAgent, leave
- 20:01:46 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items