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15:57:29 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
15:57:30 <Zakim> Meeting: Publishing Steering Committee
15:57:35 <wendyreid> date: 2024-05-01
15:58:15 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
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15:59:05 <wolfgang> present+
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15:59:14 <AvneeshSingh> present+
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16:00:08 <liisamk> present+
16:00:11 <shiestyle> present+
16:01:05 <Ralph> present+
16:01:05 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:01:12 <wendyreid> present+
16:01:19 <wendyreid> chair: wendyreid
16:02:26 <ivan> present+
16:03:30 <rickj> rickj has joined #pbgsc
16:03:33 <rickj> present+
16:04:23 <Ralph> scribe+
16:04:53 <Ralph> Wendy: this is a follow-on from our previous meeting
16:04:56 <Ralph> regrets+ George
16:05:04 <Ralph> ... we wanted to continue that discussion
16:05:15 <Leslie> Leslie has joined #pbgsc
16:05:38 <Ralph> ... one of the biggest questions that was mid-discussion was how to bring the Pub Steering Committee and the IDPF Board together
16:05:46 <Leslie> Leslie has left #pbgsc
16:05:46 <Ralph> ... and pick co-chairs to lead this committee
16:06:04 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #pbgsc
16:06:08 <wolfgang> q?
16:06:17 <Bill_Kasdorf> present+
16:06:22 <Ralph> ... there was agreement to merge the bodies
16:06:26 <Leslie> Leslie has joined #pbgsc
16:06:29 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:06:31 <Ralph> ... what does that look like?
16:06:32 <wendyreid> ack Ralph
16:06:34 <wendyreid> scribe+
16:06:56 <rickj> q+
16:06:56 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:07:04 <wendyreid> Ralph: What does it mean to merge the bodies? The IDPF board has a few formal responsibilities, but what does it mean to merge?
16:07:20 <wendyreid> ... reasonable to include the  IDPF board members as part of the activity
16:07:26 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
16:08:01 <Ralph> Avneesh: the SC is not a legal entity; last time we mentioned making the SC also the IDPF Board
16:08:08 <Ralph> ... that brings in a different mindset
16:08:27 <Ralph> ... if we expect the SC to also drive IDPF
16:08:32 <Ralph> ... this is an important question
16:08:55 <Ralph> ... if we provide the option for any SC member to also join the IDPF Board, that might be less scary
16:08:57 <wendyreid> ack rickj
16:09:14 <Ralph> Rick: helpful to frame why we're at this question
16:09:20 <Ralph> ... the original intent was for IDPF to dissolve
16:09:34 <Ralph> ... that hasn't happened yet and may not happen for a while
16:09:48 <Ralph> ... the IDPF Board has to continue to exist in order for W3C to have a license for EPUB
16:10:10 <Ralph> ... for that to work, the IDPF Board has to have funding and has to meet once a year
16:10:25 <Ralph> ... but there's no incentive for anyone to be on the IDPF Board
16:10:30 <Bill_Kasdorf> q-
16:10:45 <Ralph> ... it would be ideal if there were a mechanism to continue to rejuvenate the IDPF Board
16:10:54 <wendyreid> ack Ralph
16:15:02 <rickj> https://idpf.org/about-us/leadership
16:15:32 <Ralph> Rick: see the ^^ published list of the IDPF Board members
16:16:14 <wendyreid> Ralph: We welcome the members of the board to join us
16:16:53 <wendyreid> ... we have a valuable thing, and we have to figure out what to do next
16:16:55 <Leslie> q+
16:16:59 <wendyreid> ack Leslie
16:17:28 <Ralph> Leslie: looking at what Rick just provided, which is a little out of date, I'm having trouble understanding what's being asked
16:17:43 <Ralph> ... look at the gap; who's on the Board and not participating in W3C
16:17:49 <Ralph> ... we need a new IDPF Board chair
16:17:59 <Ralph> ... that should be someone who is also on the SC
16:18:26 <AvneeshSingh> q?
16:18:29 <Ralph> ... do you want all the officers to be on the SC or does everyone on the list need to be on the SC?
16:18:38 <Ralph> ... what's the gap you're trying to close
16:18:49 <Ralph> Rick: I may be identifying a problem that's a couple of years out
16:19:04 <Ralph> ... but if we ignore it for 2 years it may bite us then; we'll have to deal with it eventually
16:19:24 <Ralph> Leslie: at a minimum we need a new Board chair
16:19:36 <Ralph> ... it makes sense for that person to be in both bodies
16:19:40 <Ralph> Rick: agree
16:20:02 <Ralph> Leslie: does it help if all the IDPF officers participate in the SC? That seems an easy change to make
16:20:33 <Ralph> ... we need to show there is activity on the standard, activity on maintenance and new development
16:20:51 <Ralph> ... we could also be proactive about community outreach; finding a home for that
16:21:18 <Ralph> Wendy: the IDPF Board needs a new chair
16:21:27 <Ralph> ... the Pub Steering Committee also needs a new chair
16:21:44 <Ralph> ... they don't need to be the same person; it's good to have co-chairs
16:22:08 <Ralph> ... it seems simple to declare that the IDPF Board chair should be a chair of the SC
16:22:47 <Ralph> ... it may be awkward to require someone to be an officer of IDPF to be invited to the SC
16:22:53 <Ralph> ... but we do need chairs
16:23:03 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:23:07 <wendyreid> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:23:36 <Ralph> Bill: there are legal and procedural issues that puzzle me
16:23:51 <liisamk> q+
16:23:52 <Ralph> ... there are no members of IDPF anymore
16:24:06 <Ralph> Rick: the members of IDPF now are just the Board members
16:24:31 <Ralph> Bill: technically the SC is the Publishing Business Group steering committee
16:24:44 <Ralph> ... which technically means that an organization has to join the Business Group
16:24:48 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:25:06 <wolfgang> +1 to Bill
16:25:06 <Ralph> ... the mission of the SC is to address the needs of the publishing community in W3C
16:25:08 <wendyreid> ack liisamk
16:25:11 <Ralph> Ralph: +1
16:25:41 <Ralph> Liisa: if the SC is to address the needs of the publishing community in W3C we need to make it possible for any CG member to participate
16:25:57 <Ralph> ... has anyone talked with the members of the IDPF Board who haven't participated here?
16:26:21 <Ralph> Wendy: Yoshii-san is an active participant in the CG
16:26:32 <wendyreid> s/CG/WG/
16:26:43 <Ralph> ... but our SC meetings are not at a convenient time for him
16:27:10 <Ralph> Bill: I'd like my affiliation [on the IDPF Board list] corrected
16:27:58 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
16:28:26 <Ralph> Ralph: if I'm provided a list of updates to the IDPF Board page, I'll get those made
16:28:57 <Ralph> Avneesh: the IDPF Board members here can take an action to take back to the Board to propose that its chair join the SC
16:29:09 <Ralph> ... it is easy to change the terms of the SC
16:29:26 <Ralph> ... once we have a common chair it's a second task to choose a co-chair
16:29:42 <Ralph> ... then figure out how to use the group and how to proceed from there
16:29:54 <Ralph> <Ralph> +1 to Avneesh
16:30:14 <Ralph> Wendy: the next topic we wanted to talk about is invigorating activity in W3C
16:30:30 <Ralph> ... we have not brought in the next generation of leaders
16:30:41 <Ralph> ... there are people scattered around in the CG, BG, and WG
16:30:58 <Ralph> ... we know that there is interest and desire to further work on specification, technology, guidance and best practice
16:31:10 <Ralph> ... George talks at great length about things like scholarly publishing
16:31:21 <Ralph> ... how do we get more people in to build the next generation of leaders?
16:31:42 <Ralph> ... so we're not faced with a crisis in 2 years when the current leaders have moved on to the next phase of their careers?
16:31:51 <Ralph> ... what is the feasibility of talking about this in Paris?
16:32:15 <Ralph> ... there's TPAC in September; the Publishing Maintenance WG has not yet decided how it might want to use that opportunity
16:32:28 <Ralph> ... an idea we have discussed is having an industry workshop at TPAC
16:32:51 <Ralph> ... to focus on topics such as "what's next for EPUB?", "what's next for digital publishing?", "what's the future of TTS?"
16:32:59 <Ralph> ... maybe a session on scholarly publishing
16:33:16 <Ralph> ... potentially creating new profiles for Pub Manifest
16:33:32 <Ralph> ... other topics that have been floating around but without much energy
16:33:33 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:33:35 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:33:36 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
16:33:55 <Ralph> Avneesh: this is all coming from the developer point of view
16:34:05 <Ralph> ... it's good to have all this but at the same time we should think about outreach
16:34:14 <Ralph> ... IDPF used to do this a lot
16:34:21 <Ralph> ... we should think about addressing this when we meet
16:34:25 <ivan> q+
16:34:26 <Ralph> <Ralph> +1
16:34:28 <wendyreid> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:34:47 <Ralph> Bill: what Wendy said resonates with me; I keep bringing up Pub Manifest, locators, etc.
16:34:54 <wendyreid> q+
16:35:06 <Ralph> ... there are a lot of those kinds of things that are of importance to publishing but we haven't been able to attract the right people
16:35:27 <Ralph> ... some people may be interested in participating but can't get their organization to join W3C
16:35:59 <Ralph> ... they may wish their organization would join but their organization doesn't see it as a priority
16:36:10 <Ralph> ... I don't have a suggestion on how to do that
16:36:24 <Leslie> q+
16:36:24 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:36:28 <Ralph> ... I've been working on some big publishers for years as a W3C Evangelist and getting nowhere
16:36:52 <Ralph> Ivan: I think TPAC allows us to invite people
16:37:37 <Ralph> ... I fully agree that having discussions such as scientific publishing just among ourselves is meaningless; we need to invite people who are in a position to represent the big players in the industry
16:37:52 <Ralph> ... influential people from the big publishers
16:37:59 <Ralph> ... as well as IEEE
16:38:07 <Ralph> ... we need names, contacts, who are ready to come
16:38:14 <Ralph> ... then we could have something potentially exciting
16:38:16 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:38:20 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
16:38:39 <Ralph> Wendy: Avneesh raised a good point; IDPF did promotion and outreach
16:38:43 <Bill_Kasdorf> q-
16:38:48 <Ralph> ... we've not done that as well at W3C
16:39:13 <Ralph> ... what did that look like at IDPF?  What did you do?  How could we recreate some of that?
16:39:18 <ivan> q+
16:39:22 <wendyreid> ack Leslie
16:39:27 <Ralph> ... it's not that we don't want to do it, just that those of us working on standards don't know how
16:39:36 <Ralph> Leslie: we should consider going where the people already are
16:39:48 <Ralph> ... for trade and scientific that would probably be different places
16:39:54 <Ralph> ... also different places for US and UK
16:40:09 <Ralph> ... there could be an active working group for EPUB-related issues in BISG
16:40:23 <Ralph> ... that could be a forum for conversation and an on-ramp for new ideas to consider
16:40:41 <Ralph> ... and for people to step up to a higher level of membership if they are interested in standards
16:41:02 <Ralph> ... do people need to step up to membership if they are not working on standards but want to talk about ebooks?
16:41:07 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:41:13 <Ralph> ... we're having trouble finding people who want to go deep on standards
16:41:20 <Ralph> ... there may be two different groups of people
16:41:26 <Ralph> ... in the US that may be BISG
16:41:35 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:41:37 <Ralph> ... it would be good foundational work if we were to nurture those communities
16:41:53 <wendyreid> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:42:20 <Ralph> Bill: I agree with Leslie's approach but also want to remind folks that for some of these sectors it's not about EPUB and also not really about books
16:42:23 <Ralph> ... it's about platforms
16:42:37 <Ralph> ... the platforms live and breathe W3C technologies
16:42:50 <Ralph> ... BISG is a Book Industry Study Group; they don't talk about journals
16:43:06 <Ralph> ... the journal people aren't interested in EPUB but they _are_ interested in web technologies
16:43:27 <Ralph> ... IDPF was a trade book organization for many years
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16:43:38 <Ralph> ... that's not what the Publishing Steering Committee should be
16:43:42 <liisamk> q+
16:43:47 <Ralph> ... the PubSC should be about publishing technologies
16:44:02 <wendyreid> ack liisamk
16:44:12 <ivan> q+
16:44:12 <Ralph> Liisa: there are places where all these people are mtting
16:44:24 <Ralph> ... there are other organizations to whom we could have outreach
16:44:36 <wolfgang> s/mtting/meeting/
16:44:36 <Ralph> ... what are their interests? what are their needs?
16:44:46 <Ralph> ... if I do a webinar for BISG 150 people show up
16:45:03 <Ralph> ... those aren't people who are always in their regular working groups but they show up for an interesting toppic
16:45:10 <Ralph> s/toppic/topic
16:45:12 <wendyreid> ack ivan
16:45:27 <wendyreid> q+
16:45:33 <Ralph> Ivan: I remember when, 15 years ago, we began to bring IDPF and W3C together
16:45:47 <Ralph> ... at that time I tried to go to a lot of different events and talk about W3C and what W3C could do
16:45:59 <Ralph> ... including the French and British publishing organizations
16:46:12 <Ralph> ... it may be that we should do this again
16:46:39 <Ralph> ... that and holding an event at TPAC are not mutually exclusive
16:47:08 <Ralph> ... a yearly event such as what IDPF did is a significant amount of work
16:47:15 <liisamk> q+
16:47:21 <Ralph> ... I don't think W3C has the resources to do that right now
16:47:53 <AvneeshSingh> q+
16:47:59 <Ralph> ... maybe reaching out with another organization who does this
16:48:17 <Ralph> Bill: when IDPF was doing this, they hired a person to put together and run the conference; it was a paid role
16:48:18 <wendyreid> ack wendyreid
16:48:36 <Ralph> Wendy: one of the challenges is that we are losing more publishing conferences than we're seeing new ones start
16:48:42 <rickj> as someone who helped Bill with IDPF conferences, it only came about because of two things:  1) he hired someone to manage it, and 2)it was done alongside another publishing conference... and those are a dying breed
16:48:48 <Ralph> ... it used to be that there were many conferences each year
16:49:07 <Ralph> ... we're losing venues
16:49:22 <Ralph> ... it's worth reaching out to BISG and BIC
16:49:35 <Ralph> ... and other entities around the world to ask how we can work with them to liaise
16:49:49 <Ralph> ... they have working groups that do good work, not all related to W3C work
16:49:56 <Ralph> ... we should be talking with them more
16:50:05 <Ralph> ... webinars tend to be passive events
16:50:18 <Ralph> ... in our work we need collaborative effort
16:50:38 <Ralph> ... identify issues and discuss how to proceed; that doesn't happen in a webinar
16:50:47 <wendyreid> ack liisamk
16:50:52 <Ralph> ... we need to find venues and methods to make things interactive
16:51:05 <Ralph> Liisa: +1 that we need to find ways to get that many people in a conversation
16:51:13 <Ralph> ... it will be outreach to a variety of organizations
16:51:31 <Ralph> ... two things IDPF did that were successful: we hired out the standards writing and hired out the conference building
16:51:49 <Ralph> ... so IDPF wasn't asking all of its members to do technical work and we were giving them a place to learn
16:52:04 <Ralph> ... but it was hard at the end; it was hard to get people to do those things and hard to fund them
16:52:14 <Ralph> ... we've gotten good over the last four years at working virtually
16:52:29 <Ralph> ... we could come up with a way to bring people together virtually
16:52:38 <wendyreid> ack AvneeshSingh
16:52:43 <Ralph> ... one of the reasons a lot of conferences are going away is that people don't want to travel
16:52:50 <Ralph> Avneesh: all good ideas
16:53:11 <Ralph> ... let's use venues where a lot of us will already be together and discuss
16:53:26 <Leslie> q+
16:53:33 <Ralph> ... it's good to use the W3C brand but when we communicate it would also be good to have a little distance from the W3C brand
16:53:51 <Ralph> ... when we collaborate with other organizations it can be co-branded
16:54:32 <wendyreid> ack Leslie
16:54:38 <Ralph> ... as an example: a couple of months ago we had a joint meeting with BISG and afterward I received comments from people who were not aware of the work being done in the Community Group
16:54:56 <Ralph> Liisa: +1 to Liisa; the right place to do that is in the working groups of these other organizations
16:55:22 <Ralph> ... it can be workshops, 10 minutes showing W3C's roadmap for EPUB, 10 minutes talking about the topic of the moment; e.g. a11y updates
16:55:36 <Ralph> ... and 20 minutes of listening to them and hearing what their issues are
16:55:48 <Ralph> ... a listening tour to go out to each of those other organizations
16:55:55 <Ralph> ... listening to what their concerns are
16:56:07 <wendyreid> q?
16:56:11 <Ralph> ... that could be an on-ramp to getting new ideas and potentially new people into our working groups
16:56:33 <Ralph> Wendy: we're running out of time in this meeting but we're hearing some good ideas
16:56:46 <Ralph> Rick: I've started the process in the IDPF Board to discuss our chair
16:56:59 <wolfgang> q+
16:57:05 <wendyreid> ack wolfgang
16:57:07 <Ralph> Wendy: maybe Bill can talk with Brian/BISG
16:57:29 <Ralph> Wolfgang: perhaps we should focus on people working directly on technology issues rather than higher management
16:57:38 <Ralph> ... we are the people who work with the problems we want to discuss
16:57:48 <shiestyle> q+
16:57:48 <Ralph> ... maybe an on-line discussion group
16:57:52 <liisamk> I need to run- but we should keep this conversation going
16:57:58 <Ralph> ... even if they don't have affiliation with W3C
16:58:18 <Ralph> ... list a topic and invite people to the discussion
16:58:32 <Ralph> ... get to know them and hope to attract them to participate more
16:58:44 <wendyreid> ack shiestyle
16:58:45 <Ralph> ... an open discussion without a restricted agenda
16:59:01 <Ralph> Shinya: similar comment to Wolfgang
16:59:12 <Ralph> ... publishers have not so many technology people
16:59:26 <Ralph> ... get people together for discussions about technology topics
16:59:29 <rickj> unfortunately I have to leave to get on a customer call.  Apologies.  Looking forward to continuing this conversation and working together!!
16:59:36 <Ralph> ... I also want to invite management to join the discussion
17:00:03 <Ralph> ... business people should participate in the conference; there are too few technical people
17:00:15 <Ralph> Wendy: thank you all; we're at the top of the hour
17:00:25 <Ralph> ... we'll meet again next week at our usual time
17:00:28 <Ralph> [adjourned]
17:00:32 <Ralph> zakim, end meeting
17:00:32 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been wolfgang, AvneeshSingh, liisamk, shiestyle, Ralph, Bill_Kasdorf, wendyreid, ivan, rickj
17:00:34 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:00:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/01-pbgsc-minutes.html Zakim
17:00:42 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, Ralph; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:00:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pbgsc
17:01:24 <Ralph> present+ Leslie_Hulse
17:02:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/01-pbgsc-minutes.html Ralph
17:05:31 <Ralph> i|Wendy: this is a follow-on|-> https://www.w3.org/2024/04/19-pbgsc-minutes.html previous meeting 19-April
17:05:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/05/01-pbgsc-minutes.html Ralph
17:06:11 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
17:06:11 <RRSAgent> I see no action items