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13:49:33 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
13:49:34 <Zakim> Meeting: WCAG2ICT Task Force Teleconference
13:49:37 <maryjom> chair: Mary Jo Mueller
13:49:44 <maryjom> Zakim, please time speakers at 2 minutes
13:49:44 <Zakim> ok, maryjom
13:49:51 <maryjom> Regrets: Chris Loiselle, Mike Pluke
13:50:00 <maryjom> Agenda ?
13:50:03 <maryjom> Agenda+ Announcements
13:50:10 <maryjom> Agenda+ Status of remaining work before next publication
13:50:16 <maryjom> Agenda+ Survey results: Issue 145, answers to public comments, and SOTD
13:50:23 <maryjom> Agenda+ Discussion on editor's notes needed in draft for the public review.
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13:59:06 <Chuck> present+
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14:01:00 <loicmn> present+
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14:01:11 <shadi> present+
14:01:12 <mitch11> present+
14:01:19 <Laura_Miller> Scribe+ Laura_Miller
14:01:21 <Laura_Miller> present+
14:01:26 <bruce_bailey> present+
14:01:31 <maryjom> present+
14:02:28 <Laura_Miller> Zakim, take up first item
14:02:28 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up first item', Laura_Miller
14:02:33 <PhilDay> PhilDay has joined #wcag2ict
14:02:38 <Laura_Miller> zakim, next item
14:02:38 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Announcements -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:02:39 <PhilDay> present+
14:03:00 <PhilDay> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Scribe-list-&-instructions
14:03:06 <PhilDay> (For Laura!)
14:03:43 <Devanshu> Devanshu has joined #wcag2ict
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14:04:04 <Laura_Miller> MaryJom: is anyone planning to be at the friday meeting?
14:04:07 <bruce_bailey> +1
14:04:23 <FernandaBonnin> present+
14:04:34 <Laura_Miller> Mitchell, Bruce, Laura, yes.
14:04:37 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:05:25 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: Daniel, please make sure there is an event for Friday sessions.
14:06:03 <Laura_Miller> Download Invite from your W3C account.
14:06:18 <Laura_Miller> ack Bruce_bailey
14:06:18 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:06:25 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #wcag2ict
14:06:30 <Chuck> present+
14:06:42 <Laura_Miller> Bruce_bailey: is the meeting link the same as this one?
14:06:46 <Laura_Miller> Maryjo: yes.
14:06:59 <bruce_bailey> q-
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14:07:20 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: Talking about the DOJ rule with respect to WCAG2ICT.
14:07:33 <Laura_Miller> Marjoym: We recommend that we do not revamp with that in mind.
14:07:38 <Bryan_Trogdon> Bryan_Trogdon has joined #WCAG2ICT
14:07:47 <Bryan_Trogdon> present+
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14:08:12 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: It may destabilize the work we have already done. DOJ rule will not be enforced for 2-3 years.
14:08:16 <bruce_bailey> i agree that publishing by June is more important than addressing ADA Title II rule
14:08:26 <Laura_Miller> Q+
14:08:32 <maryjom> ack Laura_Miller
14:08:33 <Devanshu> present+
14:08:54 <PhilDay> I also agree that we should try and publish WCAG2ICT this summer
14:09:01 <bruce_bailey> q+ to ask about another tf in a year or so
14:09:03 <Chuck> Laura:  I agree but I think that new rule coming out about closed systems.  There is additional work we will want to adjust for.  Timing doesn't make sense until it is all out.
14:09:10 <Chuck> scribe+ Chuck
14:09:30 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: will they be referencing WCAG in the NPRM for closed systems?
14:09:37 <Laura_Miller> Bruce_bailey: Not if it’s about hardware
14:10:33 <mitch11> mitch11 has joined #wcag2ict
14:10:34 <bruce_bailey> USAB does NOT anticipate referencing WCAG with the SSTM rulemaking -- because that rule is about fixed hardware
14:10:41 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: we may want to provide questions or considerations for policy makers to consider when making statements that include WCAG
14:10:51 <bruce_bailey> WCAG is not applicable to hardware.
14:11:22 <bruce_bailey> q-
14:11:43 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: That will be worked on outside of the note and we may add an explainer about applying WCAG2ICT.
14:12:08 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: We can add to that and adjust it as needed vs the note is difficult to adjust quickly.
14:12:31 <mitch11> q+
14:12:32 <maryjom> q?
14:12:33 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:12:37 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:12:43 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
14:13:13 <Laura_Miller> Mitch11: WCAG2ICT is not just for policy makers.
14:13:29 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:13:33 <Laura_Miller> Mitch11: There are other stakeholders.
14:13:53 <Laura_Miller> Bruce_Bailey: I would suggest we get a resolution in front of AG.
14:14:26 <PhilDay> q+ to suggest we include the full URL in the meeting notes for the DOJ final rule
14:14:37 <PhilDay> ack Chuck
14:14:48 <Laura_Miller> Bruce_Bailey: We (task force) should make a resolution  that we will move forward without consideration of DOJ statement.
14:14:56 <Laura_Miller> Bruce_bailey: at this time.
14:15:26 <Laura_Miller> Chuck: We don’t need to take that resolution to AGWG
14:15:35 <PhilDay> Is this the rule that we are all referring to: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2024/04/24/2024-07758/nondiscrimination-on-the-basis-of-disability-accessibility-of-web-information-and-services-of-state ?
14:15:37 <bruce_bailey> +1
14:15:44 <Chuck> +1
14:15:47 <maryjom> DRAFT RESOLUTION: Do not make extensive changes to WCAG2ICT Draft due to DoJ's new Rule. This will be handled in other resources outside of the Note.
14:15:48 <bruce_bailey> Yes, that is the URL
14:15:59 <Laura_Miller> +1
14:16:03 <mitch11> +1
14:16:03 <PhilDay> +1
14:16:19 <Bryan_Trogdon> +1
14:16:20 <bruce_bailey> +1
14:16:22 <FernandaBonnin> +1
14:16:23 <Devanshu> +1
14:16:26 <Laura_Miller> PhilDay: Rule referenced above.
14:16:26 <loicmn> +1
14:16:33 <maryjom> RESOLUTION: Do not make extensive changes to WCAG2ICT Draft due to DoJ's new Rule. This will be handled in other resources outside of the Note.
14:17:03 <bruce_bailey> Shortest URL (should you need to type or spell out):  https://federalregister.gov/d/2024-07758
14:17:03 <Laura_Miller> zakim, next item
14:17:03 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, Laura_Miller
14:17:12 <maryjom> ack Laura_Miller
14:17:15 <PhilDay> q?
14:17:17 <Laura_Miller> ack laura
14:17:20 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
14:17:20 <Zakim> PhilDay, you wanted to suggest we include the full URL in the meeting notes for the DOJ final rule
14:17:33 <PhilDay> q-
14:17:35 <Laura_Miller> zakim, next item
14:17:35 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Status of remaining work before next publication -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:17:44 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/wiki/Work-left-for-second-public-draft
14:19:04 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: in the US, AT does not Parse but we do not know what happens outside of the US etc.
14:19:06 <PhilDay> Parsing issue: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/266
14:19:14 <Laura_Miller> This SC addresses parsing.
14:19:20 <PhilDay> Google doc on parsing: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/266
14:20:13 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: I have a note that it is rare. Still working on an updated draft.
14:20:35 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: Wilco and Dan (in the AG working group) do not agree.
14:20:48 <bruce_bailey> Deque WG reps
14:20:53 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:20:58 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:21:32 <Laura_Miller> Bruce_Bailey: both Dan and Wilco have expressed that they have a concern. They won’t likely object but will vote against and will go with the consensus (likely).
14:22:36 <dmontalvo> q+
14:22:48 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: will ask for their response to her suggested changes in alignment with their request.
14:23:06 <maryjom> ack daniel-montalvo
14:23:35 <PhilDay> Google doc on the Parsing draft: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/266
14:23:39 <Laura_Miller> Dmontalvo: making sure that everyone that needs access to the google doc being referenced, has access to the google doc.
14:23:51 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: made that change yesterday.
14:24:34 <PhilDay> q+
14:24:39 <maryjom> ack dmontalvo
14:24:43 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
14:24:47 <dmontalvo> ack me
14:25:33 <maryjom> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cZela8mnYW4wuQofaaBMRt9B-oCIODBwBMIda6Np0bE/edit?usp=sharing
14:25:49 <Chuck> Chuck has joined #wcag2ict
14:25:54 <Chuck> present+
14:26:34 <PhilDay> Issue 4: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/4
14:27:05 <PhilDay> Discussion on issue 4: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/discussions/220
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14:29:10 <Laura_Miller> Sorry, was kicked out.
14:29:30 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: Editors meeting next week and will work on notes.
14:29:32 <bruce_bailey> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/4
14:30:30 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: Abstract did not change. Task force will review document.
14:30:42 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: Official Call for Consensus will follow.
14:30:47 <bruce_bailey> q+ to check that we didn't miss anything that needed noteing
14:31:17 <Laura_Miller> ack bruce_bailey
14:31:17 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to check that we didn't miss anything that needed noteing
14:31:19 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:32:13 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: editorial issue on use of “requires”
14:32:15 <bruce_bailey> q+
14:32:23 <maryjom> https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/329
14:32:25 <Laura_Miller> ack bruce_bailey
14:32:39 <Laura_Miller> Bruce_bailey: to clarify, that is a work item for me?
14:32:41 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: yes
14:33:06 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: what is changing because of “requires” and “requiring”.
14:33:23 <Laura_Miller> Bruce_bailey: problem last time is that there were multiple mark down files.
14:34:46 <PhilDay> For general editorial issues: https://github.com/w3c/wcag2ict/issues/255
14:35:18 <Laura_Miller> Zakim, next item
14:35:19 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Survey results: Issue 145, answers to public comments, and SOTD -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:35:28 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-miscellaneous2/results
14:35:58 <Chuck> q+
14:35:59 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: First question I have, there were only three respondents. Do people need another week.
14:36:02 <mitch11> q+
14:36:03 <Laura_Miller> q+
14:36:05 <PhilDay> I'm happy to discuss and get them done this week
14:36:05 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:36:28 <Laura_Miller> Chuck: We can discuss on the fly. But I would emphasis that this is not the best operational approach to advancing this work.
14:36:41 <bruce_bailey> +1 to not spending much time today
14:36:48 <Laura_Miller> Chuck: More ideal is more review more participation.
14:36:52 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:37:01 <Laura_Miller> Mitch11: the survey is still open for another week.
14:37:32 <Laura_Miller> Mitch11: makes sense to treat today like a friday working session and take what we have to discuss points.
14:37:40 <maryjom> ack Laura_Miller
14:37:49 <PhilDay> Laura_Miller: +1 to mitch11
14:38:10 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: Start at the top of the survey.
14:39:17 <PhilDay> Google doc : https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XBgjeXvjB72p3OQogJtDUuWpzZcW-OWqxCixz3-jWz4/edit#heading=h.79s2obg4dqw6
14:39:29 <maryjom> Topic: Question 1 - (Part 1 of 3 for Issue 145) Proposed updates to 5 SC that are applied to "sets of documents/software"
14:39:38 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-miscellaneous2/results#xq1
14:39:51 <maryjom> Content we were reviewing: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XBgjeXvjB72p3OQogJtDUuWpzZcW-OWqxCixz3-jWz4/edit#heading=h.jte1knel6ihr
14:40:06 <bruce_bailey> q+ to affirm headings
14:41:59 <PhilDay> Proposal 3: Chris’ expansion from just “Regulators”
14:41:59 <PhilDay> NOTE 1: See set of documents and set of software programs in the Key Terms section of the Introduction to determine when a group of documents or pieces of software is considered a set for this success criterion. (Sets of software that meet this definition appear to be extremely rare.) Stakeholders, such as regulators or other implementers of this
14:41:59 <PhilDay> note's objectives should consider if this success criterion is appropriate to apply to non-web documents and software. See the Interpretation of Web Terminology in a Non-web Context.
14:42:01 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: Proposal 3 in the survey is what people were leaning toward.
14:42:51 <PhilDay> With Mitch's change: Proposal 3: Chris’ expansion from just “Regulators”
14:42:51 <PhilDay> NOTE 1: See set of documents and set of software programs in the Key Terms section of the Introduction to determine when a group of documents or pieces of software is considered a set for this success criterion. (Sets of software that meet this definition appear to be extremely rare.) Stakeholders, such as regulators or other implementers of this
14:42:51 <PhilDay> note's objectives, should consider if this success criterion is appropriate to apply to non-web documents and software. See the Interpretation of Web Terminology in a Non-web Context.
14:43:01 <maryjom> q?
14:43:05 <loicmn> q+
14:43:05 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:43:06 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to affirm headings
14:43:16 <maryjom> ack loicmn
14:43:39 <Laura_Miller> loicmn: We shouldn’t use the word “should” there
14:43:58 <PhilDay> Change to remove should: Proposal 3: Chris’ expansion from just “Regulators”
14:43:58 <PhilDay> NOTE 1: See set of documents and set of software programs in the Key Terms section of the Introduction to determine when a group of documents or pieces of software is considered a set for this success criterion. (Sets of software that meet this definition appear to be extremely rare.) Stakeholders, such as regulators or other implementers of this
14:43:58 <PhilDay> note's objectives, have to consider if this success criterion is appropriate to apply to non-web documents and software. See the Interpretation of Web Terminology in a Non-web Context.
14:44:10 <mitch11> q+
14:44:27 <maryjom> ack mitch
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14:45:07 <PhilDay> Softer version from Phil: Proposal 3: Chris’ expansion from just “Regulators”
14:45:07 <PhilDay> NOTE 1: See set of documents and set of software programs in the Key Terms section of the Introduction to determine when a group of documents or pieces of software is considered a set for this success criterion. (Sets of software that meet this definition appear to be extremely rare.) Stakeholders, such as regulators or other implementers of this
14:45:07 <PhilDay> note's objectives, may wish to consider if this success criterion is appropriate to apply to non-web documents and software. See the Interpretation of Web Terminology in a Non-web Context.
14:45:12 <Chuck> "will need to"
14:45:19 <Chuck> q+
14:45:26 <maryjom> ack Chuck
14:45:34 <PhilDay> Mitch's language: Proposal 3: Chris’ expansion from just “Regulators”
14:45:34 <PhilDay> NOTE 1: See set of documents and set of software programs in the Key Terms section of the Introduction to determine when a group of documents or pieces of software is considered a set for this success criterion. (Sets of software that meet this definition appear to be extremely rare.) Stakeholders, such as regulators or other implementers of this
14:45:34 <PhilDay> note's objectives, are encouraged to consider if this success criterion is appropriate to apply to non-web documents and software. See the Interpretation of Web Terminology in a Non-web Context.
14:45:53 <PhilDay> q+
14:46:00 <bruce_bailey> +1 for "will need to"
14:46:02 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
14:46:18 <bruce_bailey> -1 to "encourages"
14:47:03 <mitch11> q+
14:47:06 <PhilDay> Chuck's stronger version: Proposal 3: Chris’ expansion from just “Regulators”
14:47:06 <PhilDay> NOTE 1: See set of documents and set of software programs in the Key Terms section of the Introduction to determine when a group of documents or pieces of software is considered a set for this success criterion. (Sets of software that meet this definition appear to be extremely rare.) Stakeholders, such as regulators or other implementers of this
14:47:06 <PhilDay> note's objectives, will need to consider if this success criterion is appropriate to apply to non-web documents and software. See the Interpretation of Web Terminology in a Non-web Context.
14:47:13 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:49:37 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: there are so many other issues that are applicable.
14:50:36 <bruce_bailey> +1 that stake holders are better served spending time on other SC
14:50:48 <PhilDay> q+
14:51:29 <maryjom> ack PhilDay
14:52:29 <Laura_Miller> Zakim, next item
14:52:29 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Discussion on editor's notes needed in draft for the public review. -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:52:45 <PhilDay> zakim, take up item 3
14:52:45 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Survey results: Issue 145, answers to public comments, and SOTD -- taken up [from maryjom]
14:52:49 <bruce_bailey> q+ that last survey Q may be fast
14:52:59 <maryjom> Topic: Question 2 - (Part 2 of 3 for Issue 145) Proposals for changes to the Guidance in this Document section
14:53:04 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-miscellaneous2/results#xq2
14:53:25 <bruce_bailey> q-
14:53:33 <maryjom> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XBgjeXvjB72p3OQogJtDUuWpzZcW-OWqxCixz3-jWz4/edit#heading=h.i6341zi0a5pq
14:54:17 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: the proposal is to separate one item into two sections, split off the bottom and add a paragraph.
14:54:36 <Laura_Miller> Maryjom: Folks preferred proposals 3 and 4
14:56:26 <PhilDay> Proposal 3: Add new DoJ rule info
14:56:26 <PhilDay> Reasoning given in survey: This section can and should be updated to be responsive to the new rule under ADA Title II for website and mobile app accessibility -- which references WCAG2ICT as the authoritative source for addressing application of WCAG to non-web documents and software.
14:56:26 <PhilDay> Not all success criteria have been fully adopted in all local regulations and legislation, and may not be applicable to all technologies. WCAG2ICT has been used in some regulations to determine whether or not to apply certain success criteria. For example, some local standards such as Section 508 in the US, and EN 301 549 in Europe, state that
14:56:26 <PhilDay> non-Web documents and non-Web software do not need to comply with WCAG 2.0 Success Criteria 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks, 2.4.5 Multiple Ways, 3.2.3 Consistent Navigation, and 3.2.4 Consistent Identification. In addition, EN 301 549 also states that non-Web software does not need to comply with 2.4.2 Page titled and 3.1.2 Language of parts.
14:56:28 <PhilDay> In contrast, the U.S. Department of Justice regulation Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Disability; Accessibility of Web Information and Services of State and Local Government Entities expects implementers to utilize the guidance in this document to determine the applicability and how to apply the requirements to mobile applications. Since this
14:56:28 <PhilDay> document does not specifically say which criteria can or should apply, regulators should consider the applicability of individual success criteria to non-web documents and software.
14:57:19 <Laura_Miller>  Maryjom: suggestion is to consider Bruce’s change and if you would like Proposal 3 with the change or if you lean toward proposal 4.
14:57:20 <bruce_bailey> q+ to highlight last survey q
14:57:22 <mitch11> q+
14:57:26 <maryjom> ack bruce_bailey
14:57:27 <Zakim> bruce_bailey, you wanted to highlight last survey q
14:57:33 <maryjom> ack mitch
14:57:47 <PhilDay> Bruce change to Proposal 3:
14:57:47 <PhilDay> Proposal 3: Add new DoJ rule info
14:57:47 <PhilDay> Reasoning given in survey: This section can and should be updated to be responsive to the new rule under ADA Title II for website and mobile app accessibility -- which references WCAG2ICT as the authoritative source for addressing application of WCAG to non-web documents and software.
14:57:47 <PhilDay> Not all success criteria have been fully adopted in all local regulations and legislation, and may not be applicable to all technologies. WCAG2ICT has been used in some regulations to determine whether or not to apply certain success criteria. For example, some local standards such as Section 508 in the US, and EN 301 549 in Europe, state that
14:57:49 <PhilDay> non-Web documents and non-Web software do not need to comply with WCAG 2.0 Success Criteria 2.4.1 Bypass Blocks, 2.4.5 Multiple Ways, 3.2.3 Consistent Navigation, and 3.2.4 Consistent Identification. In addition, EN 301 549 also states that non-Web software does not need to comply with 2.4.2 Page titled and 3.1.2 Language of parts.
14:57:49 <PhilDay> In contrast, the U.S. Department of Justice regulation Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Disability; Accessibility of Web Information and Services of State and Local Government Entities expects implementers to utilize the guidance in this document to determine the applicability and how to apply the requirements to mobile applications. Since this
14:57:49 <PhilDay> document does not specifically say which criteria can or should apply, developers in being responsive to regulation that is not explicit.
14:58:05 <Laura_Miller> Mitch11: what is the motivation/what problem is this solving?
14:58:53 <Laura_Miller> maryjom: there is an open issue.
15:00:00 <maryjom> Topic: . (Part 3 of 3 for Issue 145) Proposed changes to the introductory content in the SC Problematic for Closed Functionality section
15:00:07 <maryjom> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/55145/WCAG2ICT-miscellaneous2/results#xq3
15:00:16 <maryjom> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XBgjeXvjB72p3OQogJtDUuWpzZcW-OWqxCixz3-jWz4/edit#heading=h.fblwj2ut2b2t
15:01:29 <bruce_bailey> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:01:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-wcag2ict-minutes.html bruce_bailey
15:01:38 <Laura_Miller> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:01:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-wcag2ict-minutes.html Laura_Miller
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17:15:32 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #wcag2ict
17:15:38 <maryjom> zakim, end meeting
17:15:38 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Chuck, loicmn, shadi, mitch, Laura_Miller, bruce_bailey, maryjom, PhilDay, FernandaBonnin, Bryan_Trogdon, Devanshu, Daniel
17:15:41 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
17:15:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-wcag2ict-minutes.html Zakim
17:15:48 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, maryjom; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
17:15:55 <maryjom> rrsagent, bye
17:15:55 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
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