IRC log of aria on 2024-04-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:58:40 [RRSAgent]
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16:58:44 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-aria-irc
16:58:44 [pkra]
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16:58:44 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:58:45 [Zakim]
Meeting: ARIA WG
16:58:49 [jamesn]
agendabot, find agenda
16:58:49 [agendabot]
jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
16:58:50 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240425T130000/
16:58:50 [agendabot]
clear agenda
16:58:50 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/3t6nkp7h
16:58:50 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/5n6c83bc
16:58:52 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests
16:58:56 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:58:58 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Deprecation of aria-invalid as a Global property and proposed Introduction of aria-MarkedType/aria-markType https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2155 & -> Issue: CSS Highlights Not Clearly Documented in AAM https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/226
16:59:03 [agendabot]
agenda+ How to continue the conversation: -> Clarification of when live regions are meant to be announced by AT https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2154 , -> Clarification of when a role="alert" should be announced by AT / fire an alert event https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/225 , ->
16:59:05 [pkra]
present+
16:59:07 [agendabot]
… Clarification of when a role="alert" should be announced by AT / fire an alert event https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2153
16:59:10 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Complex dashboards and standalone cards https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2162
16:59:13 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> ARIA should clarify distinction between “contents exposed as descendant text nodes” vs “name from contents” (Was: listitem should include name from Contents or name prohibited) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2160 and -> td, th naming doesn't align with ARIA
16:59:18 [agendabot]
… https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/543
16:59:20 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Question: time can have a name from author? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2075
16:59:23 [agendabot]
agenda+ -> Trim whitespace from computed accessible name/description https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/95
17:00:13 [spectranaut_]
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17:00:50 [benb]
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17:00:53 [Summer]
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17:01:33 [dmontalvo]
present+ Daniel
17:01:39 [giacomo-petri]
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17:01:44 [giacomo-petri]
present+
17:01:46 [Adam_Page]
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17:01:48 [Summer]
present+
17:01:58 [jcraig]
scribe: jcraig
17:02:03 [Adam_Page]
present+
17:02:03 [StefanS]
present+
17:02:06 [jcraig]
zakim, next item
17:02:06 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://tinyurl.com/3t6nkp7h -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:02:20 [benb]
present+
17:02:23 [ray-schwartz]
present+
17:02:26 [spectranaut_]
scribe+
17:02:31 [jcraig]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2166
17:02:39 [alisonmaher]
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17:03:08 [scotto]
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17:03:29 [alisonmaher]
present+
17:03:44 [scotto]
present+
17:04:05 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: summarizing... nathan from gecko, and tyler from webkit interop, raised these as troublesome from implementation. after we found the html one, nathan did implement a feature in gecko, but tyler brought up other concerns -- see the bulleted list
17:04:15 [Doug3]
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17:04:21 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: brings us to the question of whether or not this is critical to keep as a requirement in the specs
17:04:58 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: a listitem outside of the list context. whether or not it is problematic to say that it is a listitem, the AT can figure out whether or not the containment is valid. At only does this when user request get to that item.
17:05:10 [Theo]
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17:05:17 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: this puts more work on the engine to constantly do this work
17:05:21 [Theo]
present+
17:05:45 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: just now, because of implementation, we are questioning whether or not this is necessary
17:05:56 [katez]
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17:06:01 [katez]
present+
17:06:10 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: should this be moved to core-aam
17:06:18 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: I think it is in html-aam too?
17:06:43 [spectranaut_]
scotto: this is true for in html for list item, but I thought that html was mapped to generic for the last 12 years
17:07:03 [spectranaut_]
s/for list item/for role list item/
17:07:22 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: nathan didn't say this is a performance problem
17:07:29 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: but what about the other cases?
17:07:48 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: does this need agenda-ing?
17:08:07 [scotto]
note: not "thought" for the <li> element, when used incorrectly, it _has_ been mapped to generic in firefox for the past 12 years
17:08:09 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: if people agree... what I'm hoping for is that people agree should we pull the tests from 2024
17:08:17 [aardrian]
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17:08:30 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: probably the right people to make the decision are in the issue
17:08:33 [aardrian]
present+
17:08:40 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: I'll put deep dive so we keep an eye on it
17:08:45 [jcraig]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2164
17:08:57 [jcraig]
New role for audio transcripts
17:09:25 [jcraig]
jamesn: any opinions?
17:09:49 [scotto]
agree HTML first. otherwise just creating more roles with no native equivalent
17:09:59 [pkra]
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17:10:04 [aardrian]
also agree HTML first
17:10:05 [jcraig]
pkra: reporter also raised other structural role proposals
17:10:12 [Theo]
just making sure we don't lose track of the issue we were not able to get to last week. https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2155
17:10:49 [BGaraventa]
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17:10:54 [jcraig]
pkra: should discuss with HTML too?
17:11:17 [jcraig]
Matt: kind attr?
17:11:24 [BGaraventa]
present+ BGaraventa
17:11:42 [jcraig]
aardrian: e.g. <track> element in <video>/<audio>
17:12:07 [jcraig]
aardrian: no expectation how AT would treat it differently.
17:12:10 [jcraig]
q+
17:12:22 [jcraig]
jamesn: ny volunteers to write a response?
17:12:30 [jcraig]
s/ny/any/
17:12:58 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: I wanted to point out an example
17:13:09 [sarah]
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17:13:09 [jcraig]
https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10034/
17:13:14 [sarah]
present+
17:13:22 [jcraig]
look at the transcript tab
17:14:18 [aardrian]
Q+
17:15:02 [jcraig]
matt: list of timecoded captions...
17:15:07 [jamesn]
ack jcraig
17:15:07 [jcraig]
jcraig: basically yes
17:15:11 [jamesn]
ack aardrian
17:15:12 [Theo]
similar UI exists in MS Stream to these timecoded captions.
17:15:32 [jcraig]
aardrian: transcript is not always a plain text representation of what was said
17:16:00 [jcraig]
aardrian: i will ask if she is tying this req to functionality or to a simple container with role description
17:16:07 [jcraig]
zakim, next item
17:16:07 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://tinyurl.com/5n6c83bc -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:17:00 [jcraig]
aria-actions! https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/pull/228
17:17:16 [jcraig]
sarah: need aleventhal to review
17:17:58 [jcraig]
jamesn: accname follow on https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/235https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/235
17:18:59 [jcraig]
sarah: those interested in actions or accname and perf please look
17:19:17 [jcraig]
BGaraventa: please add me as a reviewer
17:19:25 [jcraig]
jamesn: thanks sarah for the hard work
17:19:28 [jcraig]
zakim, next item
17:19:28 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://github.com/search?q=repo%3Aweb-platform-tests%2Fwpt+is%3Aopen+label%3Awai-aria%2Caccname&type=pullrequests -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:20:01 [Matt_King]
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17:20:26 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: all these are getting reviewed, I'd like to take this time to look at the recent issue list
17:20:41 [jcraig]
https://github.com/web-platform-tests/interop-accessibility/issues
17:20:41 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: there are a few to discuss
17:21:04 [spectranaut_]
https://github.com/web-platform-tests/interop-accessibility/issues/123
17:21:21 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: melanie and bryan, can you review
17:21:33 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: there has been a lot of discussion about this, and I want a final review
17:22:12 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: now that there are accessibility interop tests, I don't want them to fix something that is actually wrong, so I want it reviewed. it's just 40 lines of code. if there is any question I'd like to pull them out now
17:22:55 [spectranaut_]
bryan: I'll look at it
17:23:01 [jcraig]
zakim, next item
17:23:01 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:23:50 [jcraig]
aardrian: 2148 may be ready for a deep dive
17:24:09 [jcraig]
jamesn: if you can run the meeting it's ready... pick a date
17:24:37 [jcraig]
https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2148
17:25:07 [jcraig]
Should form field in cells have name computed from table/grid headers (Was: Data grid example, form field missing accessible name)
17:25:16 [jcraig]
jamesn: how about next week?
17:25:53 [jcraig]
spectranaut_: scheduling
17:25:57 [jcraig]
zakim, next item
17:25:57 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- -> Deprecation of aria-invalid as a Global property and proposed Introduction of aria-MarkedType/aria-markType https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2155 & -> Issue: CSS
17:26:00 [Zakim]
... Highlights Not Clearly Documented in AAM https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/226 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:26:46 [jcraig]
Theo: noticed 3 issues here
17:27:51 [jcraig]
Theo: first has been identified by aleventhal. lack of browser support for aria-invalid... wasn't clear what that mean for developers... and no working alternative...
17:28:18 [jcraig]
Theo: issue 1 confusion re: "deprecation" can note be updated to say its still okay to use?
17:28:28 [jamesn]
q?
17:29:12 [jcraig]
StefanS: the "deprecation" listing should be handled generally, not just limited to invalid
17:29:28 [jcraig]
Theo: agreed, please list related problem areas
17:30:01 [jcraig]
Theo: issue 2. with plain HTML, should be a way to mark things as invalid... as with CSS highlights
17:31:01 [jcraig]
Theo: aria-marktype
17:31:10 [Matt_King]
q+
17:31:29 [jcraig]
Theo: idea is on a <mark> element or other element, have a way to communicate the intended semantic
17:31:52 [jamesn]
ack Matt_King
17:32:34 [jcraig]
Matt: logistical question: editors draft of ARIA, i thought we used to have the value of token types expressed.. are those gone?
17:32:49 [jcraig]
jamesn: sounds like a Respec error perhaps?
17:33:21 [jcraig]
jamesn: I see them in the editors draft... values table after chars table
17:33:44 [jcraig]
q?
17:33:46 [jamesn]
q+
17:34:10 [jcraig]
Theo: in summary, issue 2 is about providing a similar native use case for aria-invalid
17:34:26 [jamesn]
qv?
17:34:29 [jamesn]
ack me
17:34:36 [jcraig]
used in google docs and elsewhere... if kept for form elements, would allow similar functionality
17:35:00 [jcraig]
jamesn: summarizes issues 1 and 2 of 3
17:35:20 [jcraig]
1 aria-marketype
17:35:25 [jcraig]
2 native equivalent
17:35:57 [jcraig]
Theo: other types of filters like inclusive language of disability-first language, could be marked as such.
17:36:53 [jcraig]
Theo: issue 3 is that the CSS highlights did work to make sure it's available assistive tech.
17:37:11 [jcraig]
could be a good topic to include in proposed CSS-AAM
17:38:00 [jcraig]
Theo: i can help (not own) CSS-AAM
17:38:42 [jcraig]
jcraig: I can too. I was initially opposed to a CSS-AAM (~5 years ago) but there have been several use cases since that (including this one) that warrant it
17:39:28 [jcraig]
jamesn: please speak up if you can own this... we can discuss with editors
17:39:40 [Matt_King]
present+
17:39:42 [Matt_King]
q?
17:39:47 [Matt_King]
q+
17:39:49 [jcraig]
jcraig: link this to the old CSS-AAM or spawn a new one?
17:40:47 [jamesn]
ack Matt_King
17:40:47 [jcraig]
Theo: re-reading "deprecation" note… mostly developers saw this and moved away from using it... could be linked across to other possibilities
17:41:02 [jcraig]
jamesn: also weird to dep w/o alternatives
17:41:28 [jcraig]
matt: question about intent of deprecation scope.. .deprecated as global attr
17:41:46 [jcraig]
can still use those grammar/spelling/etc value in input
17:42:07 [scotto]
q+
17:42:13 [jamesn]
q+
17:43:23 [jcraig]
Matt_King: should we use this new attr of anything that is not a bad input
17:43:47 [jcraig]
so maybe roll invalid back to boolean only
17:43:56 [jamesn]
ack scotto
17:44:06 [jcraig]
and use this new type to mark type of markiung invalid types or otherwise
17:44:53 [jcraig]
scotto: when it was deprecated from global, we kep on form control to use that scope
17:45:24 [jcraig]
i dont believe you can use multiple values currently in aria-invalid
17:45:40 [jcraig]
screen readers do announce "spelling" error for example.
17:46:07 [jcraig]
s/screen readers /matt: screen readers /
17:46:33 [jcraig]
scotto: didn't make sense to add multiple tokens
17:47:08 [jcraig]
scotto: so maybe it makes sense to use this other attr to handle those other types
17:47:38 [jamesn]
ack me
17:47:48 [jcraig]
jamesn: we have a direction to move forward
17:48:14 [jcraig]
Theo: browser have their own mark functionality and pass along to APIs
17:48:18 [jcraig]
zakim, next item
17:48:18 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- How to continue the conversation: -> Clarification of when live regions are meant to be announced by AT https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2154 , -> Clarification of
17:48:21 [Zakim]
... when a role="alert" should be announced by AT / fire an alert event https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/225 , -> -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:50:50 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: to summarize what I put in the issue... it looks like the was some confusion back to a shared convo of what the expected behavior is. with aaron and ben and dominic and scott and sarah that the role of alert will continue to fire the alert notification, the recent webkit change brings it back in line with mozilla and chromium behavior. so we don't have a new divergence . there is more work to be done to make sure it works in all
17:50:50 [spectranaut_]
places.
17:51:15 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: ben did follow up with the chromium issue.... it seems like after 10 years of aria there is a consistent live region behavior
17:51:21 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: maybe we should close this issue
17:51:38 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: is there anything that should be added to ARIA?
17:51:52 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: yes, we need to add prose describing the consistency across browsers
17:52:17 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: does someone who understands the issue can take this assignment
17:52:26 [spectranaut_]
sarah: I'm interested, but it depends how soon you want it done
17:52:34 [spectranaut_]
jamesn: if all the browsers agree it's not urgent
17:53:10 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: I could help with the understanding. it's not high priority
17:53:47 [spectranaut_]
Matt_King: I'm trying to understand the scope of your comment... about the alert only?
17:53:50 [jamesn]
agenda?
17:54:23 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: doug made an announcement last meeting (which is in the meeting minutes from last meeting)
17:54:42 [Doug3]
Yeah, sorry, I wasn't clear on the role="alert" part. The non-alert versions were inconsistent with the UIA implementation.
17:55:05 [sarah]
q+
17:55:38 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: (to scribe summarize -- we thought there was a difference last meeting, it turns out there isn't actually a difference in the browsers)
17:55:57 [spectranaut_]
sarah: it's specified in core-aam, not ARIA
17:56:27 [jamesn]
ack sarah
17:56:36 [spectranaut_]
sarah: alert role is different event that live regions
17:56:53 [spectranaut_]
sarah: aria-live has a link to the changes section below, which are different events
17:57:08 [spectranaut_]
sarah: it's obscure, so it wouldn't hurt to have it in aria
17:57:50 [spectranaut_]
Matt_King: I have an old draft PR in aria-practices who will help get a live region in aria-practices. this whole topic of being able to insert an element vs change an elements, this is critical to authors. if anyone here is happy to adopt this PR
17:58:24 [spectranaut_]
sarah: as long as this is what you were thinking, I wanted to do extra tests with toggling display on the area
17:58:36 [spectranaut_]
jcraig: test webkit nightly
17:59:06 [spectranaut_]
Matt_King: a question, if you have a div that is live, and you toggle hidden on that div, nothing should happen. but if you toggle hidden on a child of that div, something should happen
17:59:37 [spectranaut_]
sarah: that is my read of the spec. I have tested this before and I don't remember the result off hand. but you when you get to edge case differences in some specifics
17:59:54 [spectranaut_]
Matt_King: if there are screen reader dependencies, all of your test case should be put in ARIA-AT
18:00:55 [jcraig]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:01:38 [jcraig]
Chair: James Nurthen
18:01:47 [jcraig]
present+
18:01:56 [jcraig]
present+ Theo
18:02:24 [bkardell_]
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18:04:28 [jcraig]
s/basically yes/basically yes. generated from the same source as captions. results in a functional list of links that jumps to video timecode. this could be a new control type aligned with this issue's "transcript" role proposal./
18:29:45 [jcraig]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:29:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:30:29 [jcraig]
s/used in google docs/Theo: used in google docs/
18:48:54 [jcraig]
s/browser have their own/browsers have their own/
18:50:10 [jcraig]
s/to dep /to deprecate /
18:50:54 [jcraig]
s/i can help (not own) CSS-AAM/i can help with (but not own) a new CSS-AAM spec/
18:51:13 [jcraig]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:51:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:51:26 [jcraig]
zakim, please part
18:51:26 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #aria
18:51:27 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees have been pkra, Daniel, giacomo-petri, Summer, Adam_Page, StefanS, benb, ray-schwartz, alisonmaher, scotto, Theo, katez, aardrian,
18:51:27 [Zakim]
... BGaraventa, sarah, Matt_King, jcraig
18:51:35 [jcraig]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:51:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:52:59 [jcraig]
s/I was initially opposed to a CSS-AAM/I initially didn't consider CSS-AAM necessary/
18:54:11 [jcraig]
s/so maybe roll invalid back to boolean only/Matt: so maybe we should consider making aria-invalid boolean only/
18:55:22 [jcraig]
s/and use this new type to mark type of markiung invalid types or otherwise/Matt_King: and use this new aria-marktype attr to differentiate both invalid fields and other uses of marking/
18:56:21 [jcraig]
s/i dont believe you can use multiple values currently in aria-invalid/scotto: i don't believe you can use multiple values currently in aria-invalid (jamesn: correct, it's TOKEN not TOKENLIST)/
18:56:26 [jcraig]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:56:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:57:09 [jcraig]
s/we have a direction to move forward/we have a direction to move forward: associate this as one of several justifications for a new CSS-AAM/
18:58:21 [jcraig]
s/maybe we should close this issue/maybe we should close this issue (immediately retracted)/
18:59:19 [jcraig]
s/I could help with the understanding/I could help with any clarifications of behavior and PR review/
19:00:28 [jcraig]
s/doug made an announcement last meeting/doug made a statement last meeting which i interpreted to mean browsers would soon lose live region interoperability/
19:01:20 [jcraig]
s/it turns out there isn't actually a difference in the browsers/it turns out the browsers are still aligned, which is a relief/
19:02:17 [jcraig]
s/test webkit nightly/test dev browser builds, since a few bug fixes have been very recent/
19:03:03 [jcraig]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:03:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/25-aria-minutes.html jcraig
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