IRC log of waicc on 2024-04-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:27:44 [RRSAgent]
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logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/04/22-waicc-irc
16:27:48 [Zakim]
RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:27:49 [Zakim]
Meeting: WAI Coordination Call Teleconference
16:27:51 [shawn]
present: Shawn
16:27:54 [shawn]
Chair: Shawn
16:28:02 [shawn]
zakim, clear agenda
16:28:02 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
16:28:11 [shawn]
agenda+ scribe to today
16:28:59 [shawn]
agenda+ TheLounge <https://github.com/thelounge/thelounge/issues>
16:28:59 [shawn]
agenda+ Updates around the table
16:30:05 [janina]
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16:30:09 [janina]
agenda?
16:33:13 [matatk]
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16:33:23 [matatk]
present+
16:33:31 [janina]
present+
16:33:48 [janina]
scribe+
16:33:50 [shawn]
zakim, drop agenda 1
16:33:50 [Zakim]
agendum 1, scribe to today, dropped
16:33:57 [matatk]
scribe+
16:34:02 [matatk]
zakim, next item
16:34:02 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- TheLounge <https://github.com/thelounge/thelounge/issues> -- taken up [from shawn]
16:35:04 [janina]
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sIErFDJMl1vpjZXmfaNksl1QE2H-Px1MGMBexZmkRAQ/edit
16:35:23 [matatk]
janina: COGA and AG collecting issues with TheLounge in the [above] Google Doc
16:35:42 [matatk]
janina: People all over the planet are getting disconnected a lot, two or three times an hour sometimes.
16:35:52 [matatk]
janina: Not sure if anyone's filed that issue yet (need to check).
16:36:07 [matatk]
... Also there are color contrasts that don't meet WCAG.
16:36:18 [matatk]
... Are these W3C implementation issues, or are they upstream issues?
16:36:33 [Jem]
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16:36:53 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:36:53 [Zakim]
Present: Shawn, matatk, janina
16:36:58 [kevin]
present+
16:37:04 [janina]
present+
16:37:14 [Jem]
present+ JaeunJemmaKu
16:37:27 [shawn]
present+ James, MaryJo, Daniel
16:37:32 [shawn]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:37:32 [Zakim]
Present: Shawn, matatk, janina, kevin, JaeunJemmaKu, James, MaryJo, Daniel
16:37:34 [matatk]
... Then here's the policy issue of this being launched without any consultation/beta period - maybe not a huge deal as most feedback is good.
16:37:49 [kevin]
-> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BMEOIEzKOSCsdMvOiB62o5qxQtk-mS-XGL6_HRmGodA/edit#heading=h.grjhk5tpcewl AGWG Issues
16:37:50 [matatk]
matatk: There was also concern about the complexity of the 'login' form - thanks for changing that promptly.
16:38:00 [matatk]
kevin: I shared the above sheet with AG.
16:38:04 [jamesn]
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16:38:16 [maryjom]
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16:38:18 [matatk]
kevin: TheLounge has been used for a while, but not the primary IRC platform.
16:38:24 [maryjom]
present+
16:38:39 [matatk]
... Daniel reviewed for accessibility (issues found are in the Doc above).
16:38:46 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:38:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/22-waicc-minutes.html jamesn
16:38:55 [shawn]
present- MaryJo
16:39:00 [matatk]
... Daniel will file the issues with TheLounge - ideally we will get them fixed upstream.
16:39:12 [matatk]
... The plan is for the Team to regularly take the latest release and adopt it.
16:39:30 [matatk]
... Looking into color. There are two stylesheets being used - dark mode and not. This is within our ability to address.
16:39:38 [matatk]
... Dropouts are a trickier issue. Not clear why that's happening.
16:40:09 [matatk]
kevin: The more info we can get about the dropouts, the better. Can pass on to sys team.
16:40:20 [jamesn_]
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16:40:33 [shawn]
q+ to note that TheLounge is optional, can use client
16:41:31 [matatk]
kevin: Re the rollout, apologies. TheLounge has been around for a while as another option. There was rationalization of the servers involved. Sorry for the lack of notice.
16:41:38 [shawn]
ack me
16:41:38 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to note that TheLounge is optional, can use client
16:42:05 [matatk]
shawn: It is optional; you can use a client on your own machine. We should still get it accessible.
16:42:19 [matatk]
janina: There aren't good clients that are accessible on Windows.
16:42:55 [matatk]
janina: We have a lot of members who just use the browser version, so important that it's workable for them.
16:43:40 [jamesn]
q+
16:43:44 [matatk]
janina: Re dropouts - is there any logging on the back end that could inform the sys team what's going on?
16:44:11 [shawn]
ack j
16:44:12 [matatk]
kevin: We need to prioritize accessibility requests (over new features). Anything that helps us fix big issues as quickly as we can would be of help.
16:44:47 [matatk]
jamesn: Is this a stripped-down version we're using? It looks like a product that may have features like saving channels etc. so they are there when you log in (like with IRC Cloud). Would be awesome if so.
16:45:16 [matatk]
kevin: This is not a stripped-down version AFAIK. It's a project available on GitHub.
16:46:19 [matatk]
kevin: Some Team members have a different type of connection (persistent) that may be making it harder for us to determine the cause of the problems.
16:46:45 [matatk]
shawn: Next steps - there are two different Google Docs - should be only one?
16:47:16 [matatk]
kevin: One contains everything Daniel already identified.
16:47:29 [matatk]
shawn: Action item to at least point to eachother, or combine them.
16:47:46 [matatk]
kevin: I added pointers to each.
16:47:49 [matatk]
zakim, next item
16:47:49 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Updates around the table -- taken up [from shawn]
16:48:24 [shawn]
q+ to note research TF & AG work
16:48:45 [jamesn]
q+ to mention the possibility of PDF-AAM
16:48:45 [matatk]
janina: We spent some time in last week's APA call in how we may be able to get pretty thorough accessibility out of fixed laouts in EPUB. Will be looking for a conversation with George et al. Paul Grenier was proposing to apply some data visualization work that's being done in a CG.
16:49:06 [matatk]
shawn: Will that address people who need text customization?
16:49:10 [matatk]
janina: Appears it might, yes.
16:49:27 [matatk]
shawn: I'd like to keep monitoring this.
16:49:49 [matatk]
janina: Will keep you updated.
16:50:40 [matatk]
janina: Challenge is that it's a Note (not HR). We can file issues.
16:50:53 [shawn]
ack me
16:50:53 [Zakim]
shawn, you wanted to note research TF & AG work
16:51:12 [dmontalvo]
present+ Daniel
16:51:28 [matatk]
shawn: AG is working on some research stuff - reaching out to APA RQTF for coordination on that. It's coming up!
16:51:35 [shawn]
ack j
16:51:35 [Zakim]
jamesn, you wanted to mention the possibility of PDF-AAM
16:51:46 [matatk]
janina: They're looking for stuff to do; CTAUR is nearing completion.
16:52:16 [matatk]
jamesn: The PDF Association is developing PDF-AAM for PDF UA 2. Not sure where it will be done yet, but it will be great to standardize this.
16:52:26 [matatk]
... They want to follow the model we have with AAMs.
16:53:18 [matatk]
shawn: Challenges with text customization with PDF.
16:53:26 [matatk]
jamesn: That is possible, could be a UA feature.
16:53:48 [matatk]
shawn: No UAs allow text customization though.
16:54:21 [matatk]
shawn: Concerned that this means it's a limitation of the technology.
16:55:14 [matatk]
jamesn: I don't think it's a fundamental problem of the technology. Can you not customize the text in any of the new UAs that support reflow?
16:55:59 [matatk]
jamesn: There are many web sites where you can't reflow the text. There is a WCAG standard but that doesn't mean it works in all cases.
16:56:41 [maryjom]
q+
16:56:50 [matatk]
shawn: I can't make it so that any UA can change the line spacing, for example.
16:57:01 [shawn]
ack m
16:57:14 [matatk]
jamesn: Can we still do work that improves things for some users? E.g. adding roles.
16:57:17 [matatk]
shawn: Yes
16:58:10 [matatk]
maryjom: There's a clause "in content that supports markup languages" - which means PDF passes, on the basis that it's not a markup language.
16:58:42 [matatk]
shawn: This part of the challenge - technically it meets WCAG, but it's not accessible in practice for users who need this customization.
16:59:03 [matatk]
maryjom: Part of the question is: Is PDF a markup language? (Relevant for WCAG2ICT)
16:59:47 [matatk]
shawn: Currently we have this situation where due to policy, PDF can meet WCAG but not support some areas of accessibility.
17:00:33 [matatk]
jamesn: We still aim to make things better at each step.
17:00:50 [matatk]
shawn: Agree
17:01:23 [matatk]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/22-waicc-minutes.html matatk