16:27:44 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #waicc
16:27:48 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/04/22-waicc-irc
16:27:48 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:27:49 <Zakim> Meeting: WAI Coordination Call Teleconference
16:27:51 <shawn> present: Shawn
16:27:54 <shawn> Chair: Shawn
16:28:02 <shawn> zakim, clear agenda
16:28:02 <Zakim> agenda cleared
16:28:11 <shawn> agenda+ scribe to today
16:28:59 <shawn> agenda+ TheLounge <https://github.com/thelounge/thelounge/issues>
16:28:59 <shawn> agenda+ Updates around the table
16:30:05 <janina> janina has joined #waicc
16:30:09 <janina> agenda?
16:33:13 <matatk> matatk has joined #waicc
16:33:23 <matatk> present+
16:33:31 <janina> present+
16:33:48 <janina> scribe+
16:33:50 <shawn> zakim, drop agenda 1
16:33:50 <Zakim> agendum 1, scribe to today, dropped
16:33:57 <matatk> scribe+
16:34:02 <matatk> zakim, next item
16:34:02 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- TheLounge <https://github.com/thelounge/thelounge/issues> -- taken up [from shawn]
16:35:04 <janina> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sIErFDJMl1vpjZXmfaNksl1QE2H-Px1MGMBexZmkRAQ/edit
16:35:23 <matatk> janina: COGA and AG collecting issues with TheLounge in the [above] Google Doc
16:35:42 <matatk> janina: People all over the planet are getting disconnected a lot, two or three times an hour sometimes.
16:35:52 <matatk> janina: Not sure if anyone's filed that issue yet (need to check).
16:36:07 <matatk> ... Also there are color contrasts that don't meet WCAG.
16:36:18 <matatk> ... Are these W3C implementation issues, or are they upstream issues?
16:36:33 <Jem> Jem has joined #waicc
16:36:53 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:36:53 <Zakim> Present: Shawn, matatk, janina
16:36:58 <kevin> present+
16:37:04 <janina> present+
16:37:14 <Jem> present+ JaeunJemmaKu
16:37:27 <shawn> present+ James, MaryJo, Daniel
16:37:32 <shawn> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:37:32 <Zakim> Present: Shawn, matatk, janina, kevin, JaeunJemmaKu, James, MaryJo, Daniel
16:37:34 <matatk> ... Then here's the policy issue of this being launched without any consultation/beta period - maybe not a huge deal as most feedback is good.
16:37:49 <kevin> -> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BMEOIEzKOSCsdMvOiB62o5qxQtk-mS-XGL6_HRmGodA/edit#heading=h.grjhk5tpcewl AGWG Issues
16:37:50 <matatk> matatk: There was also concern about the complexity of the 'login' form - thanks for changing that promptly.
16:38:00 <matatk> kevin: I shared the above sheet with AG.
16:38:04 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #waicc
16:38:16 <maryjom> maryjom has joined #waicc
16:38:18 <matatk> kevin: TheLounge has been used for a while, but not the primary IRC platform.
16:38:24 <maryjom> present+
16:38:39 <matatk> ... Daniel reviewed for accessibility (issues found are in the Doc above).
16:38:46 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:38:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/22-waicc-minutes.html jamesn
16:38:55 <shawn> present- MaryJo
16:39:00 <matatk> ... Daniel will file the issues with TheLounge - ideally we will get them fixed upstream.
16:39:12 <matatk> ... The plan is for the Team to regularly take the latest release and adopt it.
16:39:30 <matatk> ... Looking into color. There are two stylesheets being used - dark mode and not. This is within our ability to address.
16:39:38 <matatk> ... Dropouts are a trickier issue. Not clear why that's happening.
16:40:09 <matatk> kevin: The more info we can get about the dropouts, the better. Can pass on to sys team.
16:40:20 <jamesn_> jamesn_ has joined #waicc
16:40:33 <shawn> q+ to note that TheLounge is optional, can use client
16:41:31 <matatk> kevin: Re the rollout, apologies. TheLounge has been around for a while as another option. There was rationalization of the servers involved. Sorry for the lack of notice.
16:41:38 <shawn> ack me
16:41:38 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to note that TheLounge is optional, can use client
16:42:05 <matatk> shawn: It is optional; you can use a client on your own machine. We should still get it accessible.
16:42:19 <matatk> janina: There aren't good clients that are accessible on Windows.
16:42:55 <matatk> janina: We have a lot of members who just use the browser version, so important that it's workable for them.
16:43:40 <jamesn> q+
16:43:44 <matatk> janina: Re dropouts - is there any logging on the back end that could inform the sys team what's going on?
16:44:11 <shawn> ack j
16:44:12 <matatk> kevin: We need to prioritize accessibility requests (over new features). Anything that helps us fix big issues as quickly as we can would be of help.
16:44:47 <matatk> jamesn: Is this a stripped-down version we're using? It looks like a product that may have features like saving channels etc. so they are there when you log in (like with IRC Cloud). Would be awesome if so.
16:45:16 <matatk> kevin: This is not a stripped-down version AFAIK. It's a project available on GitHub.
16:46:19 <matatk> kevin: Some Team members have a different type of connection (persistent) that may be making it harder for us to determine the cause of the problems.
16:46:45 <matatk> shawn: Next steps - there are two different Google Docs - should be only one?
16:47:16 <matatk> kevin: One contains everything Daniel already identified.
16:47:29 <matatk> shawn: Action item to at least point to eachother, or combine them.
16:47:46 <matatk> kevin: I added pointers to each.
16:47:49 <matatk> zakim, next item
16:47:49 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Updates around the table -- taken up [from shawn]
16:48:24 <shawn> q+ to note research TF & AG work
16:48:45 <jamesn> q+ to mention the possibility of PDF-AAM
16:48:45 <matatk> janina: We spent some time in last week's APA call in how we may be able to get pretty thorough accessibility out of fixed laouts in EPUB. Will be looking for a conversation with George et al. Paul Grenier was proposing to apply some data visualization work that's being done in a CG.
16:49:06 <matatk> shawn: Will that address people who need text customization?
16:49:10 <matatk> janina: Appears it might, yes.
16:49:27 <matatk> shawn: I'd like to keep monitoring this.
16:49:49 <matatk> janina: Will keep you updated.
16:50:40 <matatk> janina: Challenge is that it's a Note (not HR). We can file issues.
16:50:53 <shawn> ack me
16:50:53 <Zakim> shawn, you wanted to note research TF & AG work
16:51:12 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
16:51:28 <matatk> shawn: AG is working on some research stuff - reaching out to APA RQTF for coordination on that. It's coming up!
16:51:35 <shawn> ack j
16:51:35 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to mention the possibility of PDF-AAM
16:51:46 <matatk> janina: They're looking for stuff to do; CTAUR is nearing completion.
16:52:16 <matatk> jamesn: The PDF Association is developing PDF-AAM for PDF UA 2. Not sure where it will be done yet, but it will be great to standardize this.
16:52:26 <matatk> ... They want to follow the model we have with AAMs.
16:53:18 <matatk> shawn: Challenges with text customization with PDF.
16:53:26 <matatk> jamesn: That is possible, could be a UA feature.
16:53:48 <matatk> shawn: No UAs allow text customization though.
16:54:21 <matatk> shawn: Concerned that this means it's a limitation of the technology.
16:55:14 <matatk> jamesn: I don't think it's a fundamental problem of the technology. Can you not customize the text in any of the new UAs that support reflow?
16:55:59 <matatk> jamesn: There are many web sites where you can't reflow the text. There is a WCAG standard but that doesn't mean it works in all cases.
16:56:41 <maryjom> q+
16:56:50 <matatk> shawn: I can't make it so that any UA can change the line spacing, for example.
16:57:01 <shawn> ack m
16:57:14 <matatk> jamesn: Can we still do work that improves things for some users? E.g. adding roles.
16:57:17 <matatk> shawn: Yes
16:58:10 <matatk> maryjom: There's a clause "in content that supports markup languages" - which means PDF passes, on the basis that it's not a markup language.
16:58:42 <matatk> shawn: This part of the challenge - technically it meets WCAG, but it's not accessible in practice for users who need this customization.
16:59:03 <matatk> maryjom: Part of the question is: Is PDF a markup language? (Relevant for WCAG2ICT)
16:59:47 <matatk> shawn: Currently we have this situation where due to policy, PDF can meet WCAG but not support some areas of accessibility.
17:00:33 <matatk> jamesn: We still aim to make things better at each step.
17:00:50 <matatk> shawn: Agree
17:01:23 <matatk> rrsagent, make minutes
17:01:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/22-waicc-minutes.html matatk