Meeting minutes
Calendly time picker results
[shares screen with results]
JJ: seems like most votes, 15 out of 17, are able to make it into one slot, 15:00-16:00 in my timezone
JJ: (I think that's the time in my timezone)
JJ: leaning towards that time because seems everyone can make it
how 1.3.1 relates to mobile
JJ: there's a comment from Karla on 1.3.1 where she says not sure if she agrees it applies
JJ: [shares Understanding doc for 1.3.1]
JJ: the goal is “Information about content structure is available to more people.”, examples are mostly about forms
JJ: I would say 1.3.1 applies to apps, just differently… do people have examples of differences?
julianmka: was thinking about things like radios that are semantic in Android
Karla: seems like we should find examples for that
JJ: is there maybe something you are doing that applies?
Karla: headings is an example that we can do better on mobile
JJ: would conclude it does apply but different things to focus on
JJ: another thing… do we need to mark the index and start/end of list for lists?
JJ: Joe says in a comment that for lists on Android, set position and set size or accessibilityDelegate
JJ: to me apps would usually have one heading level, multiple probably rare
julianmka: we probably want to make sure there is nuance in the guidance we provide as people seem to want to apply practices of web directly to mobile
JJ: how do we think about the navigation bar on Android?
JJ: I believe in Android it is not marked as a heading but it is possible to subclass the toolbar and make it a heading… but on iOS I believe it is marked as heading? how do we feel about this when auditing an app?
Devanshu: I think it should be marked screen title
JJ: so HTML equivalent of a page title?
Devanshu: yes
Devanshu: for Android we can set the screen title from the APIs in the activities
Devanshu: as soon as AT user goes from one screen to another, the first thing that is announced is the screen title
JJ: so this is a way for users to know the first element they hear is the screen title
RacheleDiTullio: yes good to have that but semantically should still be a heading
JJ: should focus start at the back button or start at the title?
Jamie: consistency would be helpful to provide, so if it's going to be the back button, always the back button
JJ: agreed that is important…and may be confusing if people switch between apps that it is inconsistent
Jamie: would be good to talk to folks in Apple and Google about where these relationships are intended to be natively
Jamie: “go native” would be consistent too with WCAG
JJ: yes would be good to get them involved in some of these best practices
julianmka: we've also seen them change over time what the best practices look like
JJ: how do we think about marking headings of tables? does anyone know what's the best practice for building accessible tables in Android and iOS?
Devanshu: specifically at @@@ we use indexing
Devanshu: @@@2 should only be used when it increases accessibility
JJ: with Android it is quite customisable how an app is perceived by users of assistive technologies
JJ: what did you mean re responsiveness?
Devanshu: if accessibilitydelegate helps in making the screen more responsive, I'd advice refrain from using it
JJ: there was also a comment from Julian about Paul J Adams's Swift UI table techniques
JJ: will be worth checking out native components and first party stuff
karla: re tables in iOS… for the description of products, we use them, but we don't use index of row for information in the cell
julianmka: there is difference in meaning between tables in iOS and say, Web… so might be worth disambiguating what we mean
how 2.4.2 relates to mobile
JJ: 2.4.2 is excluded in EN 301 549 and I believe in other places, the reason is that `title` cannot be added in mobile apps
RacheleDiTullio: good example of where screens don't have traditional toolbar/title would be a login screen, so you'd rely on the app's name
JJ: in apps I can see there could be screens that don't need a screen title
JJ: maybe it could be a rule in our guidance but with some exceptions
<JJ> Hidde: app name/title vs screen title, in websites the page title is dynamic and not consistent - thus also important for apps to have screen titles
julianmka: thinking about screens that don't necessarily titles because they are self evident, like login screens… totally agree. But I have experience with screens that don't actually have a name or title and it made navigation really confusing
julianmka: inconsistent nomenclature is a problem
julianmka: so something in guidance should be 'if users can navigate back to a part in the app, there needs to be a reasonable title'
Jamers: can see that name of a page title is what I see in the tab bar to see which pages are in my web browser… but most people don't use the app browser in the same way that we talk about tabs in a web browser
Jamers: so there are different kinds of uses for this SC… using the name of a page in a website is like using the screen in an app… and the other is when I am browser between tabs or apps… that's two different purposes I think
Jamers: and +1 to hdv and julianmka 's points
<julianmka> Also important context for app name -- app switcher
JJ: in the Netherlands I see all banking apps have the same name, all named “Banking”, even if they are from different banks. So the only way to identify which app is from which bank is visually
JJ: eg would be very helpful for some users for apps to have a clearly identifyable name
JJ: rather than just the icon differentiating
JJ: have others seem other types of apps that share the same name?
Jamers: the five banks I worked with all had their own name as the name
JJ: interestingly on iOS it is possible to change the announced name as different from the visual name
julianmka: searching 'clock' or 'alarm clock' in the App Store I see a lot of same names… we could have some guidance but probably be something the marketplace vendor should do something about
JJ: Apple does enforce it in App Store so apps there have unique names, but that doesn't apply to names of what's displayed for downloaded apps
JJ: does anyone know if there is enforcement like that in Play Store?
julianmka: I can see 3-4 apps named Clock in the Play Store right now
Jamers: what's their screenreader names?
julianmka: will need to check
JJ: can see in the App Store they are unique for me
JJ: thanks everyone for great discussion today
JJ: we'll have Target Size for our next meeting
<julianmka> Next week, do we meet on Wednesday?
<JJ> Next week will likely be Wednesday, I will send out notification by this week's Wednesday.