19:02:42 RRSAgent has joined #matf 19:02:46 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/04/22-matf-irc 19:02:46 RRSAgent, make logs Public 19:02:47 please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), JJ 19:02:52 Zakim, this is MATF April 22, 2024 19:02:52 got it, JJ 19:02:56 Jamers has joined #matf 19:02:58 present+ 19:03:02 present+ 19:03:04 present+ 19:03:06 present+ 19:03:06 present+ 19:03:09 karla has joined #matf 19:03:09 Devanshu has joined #matf 19:03:18 present+ 19:03:20 TOPIC: Calendly time picker results 19:03:26 present+ 19:04:20 scribenick: hdv 19:05:29 [shares screen with results] 19:05:35 Carolina has joined #MATF 19:05:46 present+ 19:06:09 julianmka has joined #MATF 19:06:26 JJ: seems like most votes, 15 out of 17, are able to make it into one slot, 15:00-16:00 in my timezone 19:06:29 present+ 19:06:34 JJ: (I think that's the time in my timezone) 19:11:30 JJ: leaning towards that time because seems everyone can make it 19:11:50 Topic: how WCAG 2.2 relates to mobile 19:12:46 JJ: there's a comment from Karla on 1.3.1 where she says not sure if she agrees it applies 19:13:22 JJ: [shares Understanding doc for 1.3.1] 19:13:28 Jamers has joined #matf 19:13:37 present+ 19:14:09 JJ: the goal is “Information about content structure is available to more people.”, examples are mostly about forms 19:14:45 JJ: I would say 1.3.1 applies to apps, just differently… do people have examples of differences? 19:15:46 julianmka: was thinking about things like radios that are semantic in Android 19:16:48 Karla: seems like we should find examples for that 19:16:56 JJ: is there maybe something you are doing that applies? 19:17:05 Karla: headings is an example that we can do better on mobile 19:17:26 JJ: would conclude it does apply but different things to focus on 19:18:20 JJ: another thing… do we need to mark the index and start/end of list for lists? 19:19:28 JJ: Joe says in a comment that for lists on Android, set position and set size or accessibilityDelegate 19:21:23 JJ: to me apps would usually have one heading level, multiple probably rare 19:21:47 julianmka: we probably want to make sure there is nuance in the guidance we provide as people seem to want to apply practices of web directly to mobile 19:22:02 JJ: how do we think about the navigation bar on Android? 19:22:34 JJ: I believe in Android it is not marked as a heading but it is possible to subclass the toolbar and make it a heading… but on iOS I believe it is marked as heading? how do we feel about this when auditing an app? 19:23:26 Devanshu: I think it should be marked screen title 19:23:33 JJ: so HTML equivalent of a page title? 19:23:38 Devanshu: yes 19:23:49 JJ: for Android we can set the screen title from the APIs in the activities 19:24:13 s/JJ/Devanshu 19:24:31 Devanshu: as soon as AT user goes from one screen to another, the first thing that is announced is the screen title 19:24:43 JJ: so this is a way for users to know the first element they hear is the screen title 19:25:00 RacheleDiTullio: yes good to have that but semantically should still be a heading 19:25:17 JJ: should focus start at the back button or start at the title? 19:26:24 Jamie: consistency would be helpful to provide, so if it's going to be the back button, always the back button 19:28:03 JJ: agreed that is important…and may be confusing if people switch between apps that it is inconsistent 19:28:31 Jamie: would be good to talk to folks in Apple and Google about where these relationships are intended to be natively 19:28:40 julianmka has joined #MATF 19:29:01 Jamie: “go native” would be consistent too with WCAG 19:29:55 JJ: yes would be good to get them involved in some of these best practices 19:29:57 julianmka: we've also seen them change over time what the best practices look like 19:31:14 JJ: how do we think about marking headings of tables? does anyone know what's the best practice for building accessible tables in Android and iOS? 19:31:56 Devanshu: specifically at @@@ we use indexing 19:32:20 Devanshu: @@@2 should only be used when it increases accessibility 19:32:33 JJ: with Android it is quite customisable how an app is perceived by users of assistive technologies 19:32:49 JJ: what did you mean re responsiveness? 19:33:34 Devanshu: if accessibilitydelegate helps in making the screen more responsive, I'd advice refrain from using it 19:35:18 JJ: there was also a comment from Julian about Paul J Adams's Swift UI table techniques 19:35:59 JJ: will be worth checking out native components and first party stuff 19:36:44 karla: re tables in iOS… for the description of products, we use them, but we don't use index of row for information in the cell 19:37:40 julian: there is difference in meaning between tables in iOS and say, Web… so might be worth disambiguating what we mean 19:37:52 s/julian/julianmka 19:39:01 q+ 19:39:59 q- 19:40:27 s/Topic: how WCAG 2.2 relates to mobile/Topic: how 1.3.1 relates to mobile 19:40:33 RRSAgent, draft minutes please 19:40:34 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/22-matf-minutes.html hdv 19:41:12 Topic: 2.4.4 this one is excluded in EN 301 549 and I believe in other places, the reason is that `title` cannot be added in mobile apps 19:42:00 s/Topic:// 19:42:10 s/2.4.4 this one is excluded in EN 301 549 and I believe in other places, the reason is that `title` cannot be added in mobile apps// 19:42:25 Topic: how 2.4.2 relates to mobile 19:42:41 JJ: 2.4.2 is excluded in EN 301 549 and I believe in other places, the reason is that `title` cannot be added in mobile apps 19:43:15 q+ 19:44:06 RacheleDiTullio: good example of where screens don't have traditional toolbar/title would be a login screen, so you'd rely on the app's name 19:44:50 JJ: in apps I can see there could be screens that don't need a screen title 19:45:18 JJ: maybe it could be a rule in our guidance but with some exceptions 19:45:24 q+ 19:45:48 q? 19:45:54 q+ 19:46:10 ack hdv 19:47:08 Hidde: app name/title vs screen title, in websites the page title is dynamic and not consistent - thus also important for apps to have screen titles 19:47:29 ack jul 19:48:21 julianmka: thinking about screens that don't necessarily titles because they are self evident, like login screens… totally agree. But I have experience with screens that don't actually have a name or title and it made navigation really confusing 19:48:40 julianmka: inconsistent nomenclature is a problem 19:48:54 julianmka: so something in guidance should be 'if users can navigate back to a part in the app, there needs to be a reasonable title' 19:49:08 ack Jamers 19:50:07 Jamers: can see that name of a page title is what I see in the tab bar to see which pages are in my web browser… but most people don't use the app browser in the same way that we talk about tabs in a web browser 19:50:44 Jamers: so there are different kinds of uses for this SC… using the name of a page in a website is like using the screen in an app… and the other is when I am browser between tabs or apps… that's two different purposes I think 19:51:01 Jamers: and +1 to hdv and julianmka 's points 19:51:29 Also important context for app name -- app switcher 19:51:59 JJ: in the Netherlands I see all banking apps have the same name, all named “Banking”, even if they are from different banks. So the only way to identify which app is from which bank is visually 19:52:16 JJ: eg would be very helpful for some users for apps to have a clearly identifyable name 19:52:28 JJ: rather than just the icon differentiating 19:52:43 Q+ 19:52:46 JJ: have others seem other types of apps that share the same name? 19:52:58 ack Jam 19:53:11 q+ 19:53:31 Jamers: the five banks I worked with all had their own name as the name 19:53:47 JJ: interestingly on iOS it is possible to change the announced name as different from the visual name 19:53:48 q+ 19:54:16 q? 19:54:19 ack me 19:55:33 julianmka: searching 'clock' or 'alarm clock' in the App Store I see a lot of same names… we could have some guidance but probably be something the marketplace vendor should do something about 19:56:03 JJ: Apple does enforce it in App Store so apps there have unique names, but that doesn't apply to names of what's displayed for downloaded apps 19:56:21 JJ: does anyone know if there is enforcement like that in Play Store? 19:56:47 julianmka: I can see 3-4 apps named Clock in the Play Store right now 19:56:58 Jamers: what's their screenreader names? 19:58:39 julianmka: will need to check 19:58:54 JJ: can see in the App Store they are unique for me 19:59:20 JJ: thanks everyone for great discussion today 19:59:27 JJ: we'll have Target Size for our next meeting 19:59:56 Next week, do we meet on Wednesday? 20:04:31 Bram has left #matf 20:05:53 Next week will likely be Wednesday, I will send out notification by this week's Wednesday. 20:06:23 zakim, list participants 20:06:23 As of this point the attendees have been JJ, RacheleDiTullio, Jamers, hdv, Bram, Devanshu, karla, Carolina, julianmka 20:06:50 rrsagent, make minutes 20:06:51 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/22-matf-minutes.html JJ 20:07:23 rrsagent, bye 20:07:23 I see no action items