15:45:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdf-star
15:45:55 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/04/18-rdf-star-irc
15:45:59 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
15:46:10 <ktk> meeting:  RDF-star WG biweekly meeting
15:46:22 <ktk> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240418T120000/
15:46:22 <agendabot> clear agenda
15:46:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2024/04/11-rdf-star-minutes.html
15:46:22 <agendabot> agenda+ Proposal for next week's discussion -> 3 https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240418T120000/TBD
15:46:23 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of open actions, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3
15:46:25 <agendabot> agenda+ Review of pull requests, available at -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4
15:46:28 <agendabot> agenda+ Issue Triage, available at -> 6 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5
15:46:30 <agendabot> agenda+ Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting
15:48:32 <ktk> Regrets+ fsasaki, efranconi, darndt
15:48:38 <ktk> Zakim, draft minutes
15:48:38 <Zakim> I don't understand 'draft minutes', ktk
15:48:43 <ktk> Zakim, make minutes
15:48:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make minutes', ktk
15:48:52 <ktk> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:48:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/18-rdf-star-minutes.html ktk
15:48:57 <ktk> RRSAgent, make log public
15:56:00 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
15:57:04 <ktk> present+
15:58:16 <ora> ora has joined #rdf-star
15:58:23 <Dominik_T> Dominik_T has joined #rdf-star
15:58:36 <pchampin> pchampin has changed the topic to: RDF-star WG - Biweekly meeting - 2024-04-18 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240418T120000/
15:58:53 <gtw> present+
15:59:14 <TallTed> TallTed has changed the topic to: RDF-star WG - biweekly technical meeting - 2024-04-18 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240418T120000/
15:59:16 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:59:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:59:24 <TallTed> present+
15:59:39 <ora> present+
16:00:39 <olaf> olaf has joined #rdf-star
16:00:58 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/04/12-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:01:00 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/04/19-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:01:45 <TallTed> scribe: pchampin
16:01:45 <TallTed> chair: ora
16:01:59 <draggett> draggett has joined #rdf-star
16:02:01 <tl> tl has joined #rdf-star
16:02:04 <draggett> present+
16:02:08 <olaf> present+
16:02:16 <tl> present+
16:02:23 <gkellogg> present+
16:02:50 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:02:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:03:19 <pchampin> Zakim, open next item
16:03:19 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- Approval of minutes from the last two meetings: -> 1 https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-rdf-star-minutes.html , -> 2 https://www.w3.org/2024/04/11-rdf-star-minutes.html --
16:03:22 <Zakim> ... taken up [from agendabot]
16:03:36 <ktk> Comments by az: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-star-wg/2024Apr/0110.html
16:03:46 <pchampin> ora: any comments on the minutes?
16:04:13 <pchampin> ktk: we have a comment by AZ on the mailing list, link above
16:04:15 <niklasl> niklasl has joined #rdf-star
16:04:35 <Dominik_T> present+
16:04:36 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdf-star
16:04:44 <Souri> present+
16:04:49 <niklasl> present+
16:04:51 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
16:05:01 <AZ> present+
16:05:21 <pchampin> ktk: maybe the people mentioned in this email can tell pchampin which changes to make
16:05:50 <pchampin> TallTed: the minutes are not a meticulous transcription; "gibberish" and "poetry" happen.
16:06:04 <pchampin> ora: we might still address points if they are very unclear
16:06:05 <ktk> q?
16:06:18 <pchampin> q+
16:06:24 <ora> ack pchampin
16:07:00 <AZ> I agree that nothing I mentioned is critical
16:07:07 <pchampin> pchampin: do we want to set a deadline for addressing this issues?
16:08:17 <pchampin> TallTed: the bar "+1"s are the scribe scribing
16:08:34 <pchampin> gkellogg: the phantom issue is still there
16:08:45 <pchampin> s/the bar/the bare/
16:09:53 <pchampin> ora: let's give people until next Monday to suggest fixes; can we do a conditional approval in the meantime?
16:09:58 <pchampin> pchampin: I think we can
16:10:06 <TallTed> pchampin -- if you can change `does this there is mean` to `does this mean`, that will fix the poetry
16:10:06 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Accept last week's and two week's ago minutes, given additional feedback by next Monday (22.4.24). https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-rdf-star-minutes.html and https://www.w3.org/2024/04/11-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:10:10 <AZ> If no feedback is given, I'd be happy to approve the minutes as they are
16:10:19 <ora> +1
16:10:21 <ktk> +1
16:10:21 <pchampin> <pchampin> +1
16:10:22 <olaf> +1
16:10:24 <niklasl> +1
16:10:26 <gkellogg> +1
16:10:29 <AZ> +1
16:10:34 <tl> +1
16:11:11 <Dominik_T> +0.5 (I was not present on April 04, 2024)
16:11:16 <TallTed> s/does this there is mean` to `does this mean/does this there is mean the specs are still still` to `does this mean the specs are still/
16:11:39 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:11:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:11:46 <Souri> <Souri> +1
16:12:07 <pchampin> q
16:12:20 <TallTed> +1
16:12:24 <ktk> PROPOSAL: Accept last week's and two week's ago minutes, given additional feedback by next Monday (22.4.24). https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-rdf-star-minutes.html and https://www.w3.org/2024/04/11-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:12:26 <pchampin> s/<Souri> +1/+1
16:12:46 <TallTed> s| PROPOSAL: Accept last week's and two week's ago minutes, given additional feedback by next Monday (22.4.24). https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-rdf-star-minutes.html and https://www.w3.org/2024/04/11-rdf-star-minutes.html||
16:12:50 <ktk> RESOLUTION: Accept last week's and two week's ago minutes, given additional feedback by next Monday (22.4.24). https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-rdf-star-minutes.html and https://www.w3.org/2024/04/11-rdf-star-minutes.html
16:13:00 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:13:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:13:10 <pchampin> Zakim, open next item
16:13:10 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Proposal for next week's discussion -> 3 https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240418T120000/TBD -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:13:46 <ktk> q+
16:13:53 <tl> Page Not Found
16:13:56 <ora> ack ktk
16:13:57 <TallTed> s|PROPOSAL: Accept last week's and two week's ago minutes, given additional feedback by next Monday (22.4.24). https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-rdf-star-minutes.html and https://www.w3.org/2024/04/11-rdf-star-minutes.html ||
16:14:03 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:14:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:14:17 <pchampin> ktk: the discussions were super interesting; I have no idea how we are going to finish them.
16:14:25 <pchampin> ... I'm a bit confused who is in which camp.
16:14:26 <pchampin> q+
16:14:39 <pchampin> ... Some positions are very clear, others are not so clear.
16:14:59 <TallTed> s|PROPOSAL: Accept last week's and two week's ago minutes, given additional feedback by next Monday (22.4.24). https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-rdf-star-minutes.html and https://www.w3.org/2024/04/11-rdf-star-minutes.html||
16:15:01 <pchampin> ... Maybe we need to make a straw poll.
16:15:22 <ora> ack pchampin
16:15:25 <tl> that link -  https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/0a6aa6e3-635c-42c2-baba-938c76b6ef01/20240418T120000/TBD - doesn't work for me, so what is the proposal for next weeks discussion?
16:15:31 <pchampin> q-
16:15:46 <pchampin> ora: for the sake of trying to solve this, I'm hoping that we only have two camps.
16:16:12 <pchampin> ... I think we want to reach consensus, avoid an impasse.
16:16:17 <pchampin> q+
16:16:26 <pchampin> ... Hopefully we need to find consensus.
16:16:27 <ora> ack pchampin
16:18:07 <gkellogg> q+
16:18:18 <pchampin> pchampin: like the other time, I think we should come to the next meeting with thoughts on "what I can live with" rather than "how can I convince the other camp".
16:18:35 <pchampin> ... and set ourselves the goal to end the next meeting with a decision, which makes everyone equally (un)happy.
16:18:57 <Souri> q+
16:19:04 <pchampin> ora: I like this proposal.
16:19:06 <ora> ack gkellogg
16:19:17 <pchampin> gkellogg: apologies, I will not be here the next two weeks.
16:20:03 <pchampin> ... I think there are really 3 positions, not 2. If we consider the possibly entailed triple terms, this leads to several triple terms for a single reifier.
16:20:33 <pchampin> ... We need to consider ways to fix our decision if we need to.
16:20:52 <pchampin> ora: what kind of entailment are you thinking of? sameAs?
16:20:55 <Souri> q-
16:21:05 <pchampin> gkellogg: there is also cases of equality with numeric literals.
16:21:32 <pchampin> Souri: maybe we need to think about what we can live with, but also what we absolutely can not have.
16:21:40 <tl> q+
16:21:42 <pchampin> ... It's good to have arguments for both.
16:21:47 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:21:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:21:55 <ora> ack tl
16:22:40 <pchampin> tl: a Best Practices document would be a good place to explain what can be done.
16:23:15 <pchampin> ... I understand that niklasl was working on such a document. I would like to know the status.
16:23:44 <pchampin> niklasl: it's hard to say. It is not ready yet, but maybe it can already be shared.
16:23:51 <AndyS> q+
16:23:56 <ora> ack AndyS
16:24:22 <pchampin> AndyS: Can we have material for the next meeting several hours before the meeting, please.
16:24:39 <pchampin> ... It is hard to catch up with material just before the meeting.
16:25:00 <pchampin> ora: agree. What about setting the limit to the previous day?
16:25:13 <pchampin> Zakim, open next item
16:25:13 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review of open actions, available at -> 4 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/3 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:25:24 <gkellogg> q+
16:26:18 <pchampin> q+
16:26:22 <pchampin> gkellogg: I have updated all the specs to be "updatable".
16:26:27 <ktk> ack gkellogg
16:26:33 <ora> ack pchampin
16:26:41 <pchampin> ... They have been merged, but not published, because of a bug with the github action.
16:27:05 <gkellogg> close w3c/rdf-star-wg#113
16:27:07 <gb> Closed -> issue #113 https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/113
16:27:48 <pchampin> pchampin: there was indeed a bug in the GH action that we are using; it was fixed in the meantime, so rerunning the actions should fix the problem.
16:28:02 <pchampin> Zakim, open next item
16:28:02 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Review of pull requests, available at -> 5 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/4 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:28:46 <pchampin> ora: I guess there is nothing we can do about these either.
16:29:12 <tl9> tl9 has joined #rdf-star
16:29:18 <pchampin> ... How can we solve this rdf:JSON issue? pfps is not here.
16:30:08 <pchampin> ... The term is here. The question is a matter of taste on how we define the value space.
16:30:23 <pchampin> ... I can't speak for pfps.
16:30:37 <pchampin> ... I think we need a focused meeting to discuss this issue.
16:30:54 <pchampin> ora: from your experience with JSON-LD, how would you solve it?
16:31:28 <pchampin> gkellogg: in JSON-LD we relied on JCS canonicalization, even though JCS was not an RFC.
16:33:14 <pchampin> ... I interpret pfps' feedback as considering that JCS is inadequate -- it can be lossy in some cases.
16:33:37 <pchampin> ... If we were to create a new canonicalization scheme, using XML-Schema canonicalization, this would solve this problem.
16:33:48 <pchampin> ... But that would be yet another JSON C14N algorithm...
16:34:10 <pchampin> ... But the difference between the two would not have any practical impact in my opinion.
16:34:17 <ktk> q?
16:34:20 <pchampin> <pchampin> +1
16:34:41 <pchampin> ora: we should soon have a discussion about this, so that we can put it behind.
16:34:50 <pchampin> Zakim, open next item
16:34:50 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Issue Triage, available at -> 6 https://github.com/orgs/w3c/projects/20/views/5 -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:35:12 <gkellogg> q+
16:35:32 <gkellogg> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/114
16:35:33 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-star-wg/issues/114 -> Issue 114 How will RDF 1.2 affect RDF Canonicalization? (by niklasl) [needs discussion]
16:36:21 <pchampin> gkellogg: in my opinion, we need to define a transformation from graph using triple-terms to graphs without triple-terms,
16:36:29 <AndyS> s/it behind./it behind us./
16:36:40 <pchampin> ... ideally a round-trip-able transformation,
16:36:43 <niklasl> +1
16:37:02 <pchampin> ... and define that the canonicalization of RDF 1.2 as the canonicalization of that transformation.
16:37:30 <pchampin> ... There was a lot of work put in the C14N to prove its good properties from a cryptographical point of view.
16:37:47 <pchampin> ... Any change to include the triple-terms would change it radically.
16:37:48 <pchampin> q+
16:37:48 <AndyS> q+
16:37:59 <ktk> ack gkellogg
16:38:22 <pchampin> ora: I understand we don't want to open that long discussion again.
16:38:31 <niklasl> q+
16:38:39 <pchampin> ... Do we need to dedicate one of the focused meeting on this?
16:39:09 <pchampin> gkellogg: I would like to hear someone with a different view. We need to discuss the technical means to define this transformation?
16:39:16 <ora> ack pchampin
16:39:31 <AZ> AZ has joined #rdf-star
16:40:25 <ora> ack AndyS
16:40:29 <gkellogg> scribe+
16:40:53 <ora> ack niklasl
16:40:58 <pchampin> pchampin: I agree with gkellogg's proposal, although I would frame it clearly as a workaround, pending a new version of RDFC.
16:41:12 <gkellogg> scribe-
16:41:34 <pchampin> AndyS: I don't have a different opinion either. About round-trip, I don't think we need an RDF 1.1 -> RDF 1.2 -> RDF 1.1 roundtrip.
16:41:55 <pchampin> niklasl: I agree with the other remarks.
16:42:05 <pchampin> ... [something about triple-term identifiers]
16:42:48 <pchampin> ora: any other issues that someone wants to discuss?
16:43:06 <gkellogg> I was thinking of round-tripping RDF 1.2 Full to RDF 1.2 Classic.
16:43:59 <pchampin> ... I suggest every one takes a look at the list every so often.
16:44:05 <pchampin> Zakim, open next item
16:44:05 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- Any Other Business (AOB), time permitting -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:44:20 <pchampin> ora: who is going to the Knowledge Graph conference?
16:44:36 <niklasl> q+
16:44:40 <pchampin> ... I am. It's in NYC in 3 weeks.
16:44:42 <ora> ack niklasl
16:44:55 <pchampin> niklasl: I can't go, and probably not even watch it remotely.
16:45:01 <pchampin> ... Will they record your presentation?
16:45:28 <pchampin> ora: I think they record all the talks. I'll do a dry-run internally, it might be recorded as well (in case the KGC does not).
16:45:43 <pchampin> ... There will be a lot of interesting stuff, inc. a master class in SHACL.
16:46:23 <pchampin> ... Anybody going to ESWC?
16:46:38 <pchampin> olaf: I am.
16:46:47 <ktk> https://github.com/zazuko/knowledge-graph-forum/
16:47:24 <pchampin> ktk: Knowledge Graph Forum in Basel, ora will be here.
16:47:33 <pchampin> ... Anybody wants to come, let me know.
16:47:34 <tl_again> tl_again has joined #rdf-star
16:47:49 <pchampin> ... It is back-to-back with Semantics @ Roche.
16:48:33 <pchampin> ora: I'm going to Finland after that, I was invited to a semantic meeting.
16:48:41 <pchampin> ... They asked me to talk about RDF-star.
16:48:59 <TallTed> s|the Knowledge Graph conference?|the Knowledge Graph conference? https://www.knowledgegraph.tech/|
16:49:14 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:49:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
16:49:24 <olaf> olaf has left #rdf-star
16:49:31 <pchampin> ora: let's adjourn. Please remind to send any input to the next meeting at least 24h before.
16:49:34 <pchampin> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:49:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/18-rdf-star-minutes.html pchampin
16:54:23 <TallTed> i|Anybody wants to come| https://github.com/zazuko/knowledge-graph-forum?tab=readme-ov-file |
16:55:33 <TallTed> s|Semantics @ Roche.|Semantics @ Roche. https://2024-eu.semantics.cc/ |
16:55:39 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:55:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/18-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
17:04:20 <pchampin> Zakim, bye
17:04:20 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been ktk, gtw, TallTed, ora, draggett, olaf, tl, gkellogg, Dominik_T, Souri, niklasl, AZ
17:04:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdf-star
17:04:28 <pchampin> RRSAgent, bye
17:04:28 <RRSAgent> I see no action items