12:56:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wcag-act
12:56:39 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/04/11-wcag-act-irc
12:56:39 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
12:56:40 <Zakim> Meeting: Accessibility Conformance Testing Teleconference
12:56:42 <kathy> agenda?
12:57:21 <kathy> zakim, clear agenda
12:57:21 <Zakim> agenda cleared
12:57:30 <kathy> agenda+ ACT Standup
12:57:42 <kathy> agenda+ Next 2 meetings cancelled (April 18 & 25)
12:57:53 <kathy> agenda+ Review spreadsheet Updates needed
12:58:04 <kathy> agenda+ Focusable element has no keyboard trap via non-standard navigation
12:58:13 <kathy> agenda+ Focusable element has no keyboard trap (Composite)
12:58:14 <thbrunet> thbrunet has joined #wcag-act
12:58:25 <kathy> agenda+ 9:40 with CG: Label in Name Understanding update and Related ACT changes
12:58:37 <kathy> agenda+ What next?
13:01:07 <trevor> trevor has joined #wcag-act
13:02:21 <dmontalvo> scribe: dmontalvo
13:02:54 <thbrunet> present+
13:02:54 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
13:02:54 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- ACT Standup -- taken up [from kathy]
13:02:57 <trevor> present+
13:03:01 <dmontalvo> present+ Daniel
13:03:03 <kathy> present+
13:04:21 <dmontalvo> Kathy: Waited on a decission, coordinated with Bruce on that
13:05:28 <kathy> http://irc.w3.org/?channels=#wcag-act
13:05:45 <dmontalvo> Tom: Not much to report
13:06:54 <catherine6> catherine6 has joined #wcag-act
13:07:07 <catherine6> present+
13:07:41 <dmontalvo> Katherine: Out these weeks
13:08:13 <dmontalvo> Trevor: Started to look through some of JM PRs on the target rules, huge PRs
13:09:02 <dmontalvo> <Daniel> Publication to WAI website, coordination with CG for joint discussion, planning meeting, sent email to AGWG Chairs to request approval for ACT-Rules format FPWD
13:09:08 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
13:09:08 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- Next 2 meetings cancelled (April 18 & 25) -- taken up [from kathy]
13:09:36 <dmontalvo> Kathy: Canceling next two meetings
13:10:38 <dmontalvo> zakim, close item 2
13:10:38 <Zakim> agendum 2, Next 2 meetings cancelled (April 18 & 25), closed
13:10:38 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:10:38 <Zakim> 3. Review spreadsheet Updates needed [from kathy]
13:10:40 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
13:10:40 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- Review spreadsheet Updates needed -- taken up [from kathy]
13:12:12 <dmontalvo> Kathy: Media alternative for video content being visible -- I expect some decission by the end of this week. I'll follow up when I'm back. That is going to affect one or two rules. There were two atomics and one composite
13:12:33 <dmontalvo> zakim, close item 3
13:12:33 <Zakim> agendum 3, Review spreadsheet Updates needed, closed
13:12:34 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
13:12:34 <Zakim> 4. Focusable element has no keyboard trap via non-standard navigation [from kathy]
13:12:36 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
13:12:36 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- Focusable element has no keyboard trap via non-standard navigation -- taken up [from kathy]
13:13:07 <dmontalvo> Kathy: We got through a bit of this survey
13:13:32 <dmontalvo> Kathy: Question 7
13:14:27 <dmontalvo> ... Tom, it might be easy or if you are the liaison in the others you may want to take this up as well
13:15:32 <dmontalvo> Tom: Being able to escape in one direction may not be sufficient for SC 2.1.2
13:15:41 <dmontalvo> [[Commentss on added background note]]
13:15:47 <dmontalvo> Kathy: Any questions?
13:16:31 <dmontalvo> [[Expectation 3]]
13:16:47 <dmontalvo> Tom: It would be clearer if that was on expectation 2 instead of 3
13:17:36 <dmontalvo> Tom: The note is about clarifying how you would do that. The third is about describing it
13:18:08 <dmontalvo> Kathy: I think the note under 3 is trying to explain what expectation 3 is saying
13:18:32 <dmontalvo> Tom: But it is clarifying the how to cycle to browser UI in expectation 2
13:18:49 <dmontalvo> ... Cycling to the browser UI is defined through the expectations
13:19:17 <dmontalvo> Kathy: I read ex pectation 2 as about the help information
13:19:49 <dmontalvo> Tom: You need to get to expectation 3 for you to find out what cycle to the browser UI means
13:20:21 <dmontalvo> Trevor: I would be infavor of either changing from cycle to something else or having cycle somewhere in the definition
13:20:45 <dmontalvo> <Daniel> +1
13:21:20 <dmontalvo> Trevor: For me, cycle means just tabing until I get back around
13:21:43 <dmontalvo> ... Whereas here intermediate steps for you to be able to do that are implicit, and are unclear
13:22:46 <dmontalvo> Kathy: Are we all in agreement to move note in expectation 3 to expectation 2
13:22:51 <dmontalvo> Tom: Second sentence is fine
13:23:16 <dmontalvo> ... We have a definition of cycling that can be used in both places
13:23:37 <dmontalvo> ... I would clean it up a bit
13:23:53 <dmontalvo> ... And handle it as part of the PR process
13:24:20 <dmontalvo> Kathy: Tom's comment about passed 1
13:25:04 <dmontalvo> Tom: The way the HTML is set up is outside of the trap. Inside of the trap you cannot get to CTRL+M. Screen readers can use reading mode but that is not all users
13:25:57 <dmontalvo> ... Would be good for all of this to be wrapped around the modal
13:26:13 <dmontalvo> Kathy: I don't see an expectation that the help information needs to be available within the trap
13:26:35 <dmontalvo> Tom: That's what the first one says, yes, never mind. Weird implementation but it's fine
13:27:15 <dmontalvo> Kathy: Tom also says: Good to have an inapplicable example with a modal that can be exitted with escape
13:27:21 <dmontalvo> Kathy: I like that
13:27:59 <dmontalvo> Kathy: ?Ready to publish?
13:28:05 <dmontalvo> Tom: No, some clean-up is needed
13:28:17 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
13:28:17 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- Focusable element has no keyboard trap (Composite) -- taken up [from kathy]
13:28:49 <dmontalvo> Kathy: A lot of work needs to happen in the atomic rules anyway
13:29:03 <dmontalvo> ... Some restructuring according to Format updates
13:29:51 <dmontalvo> Kathy: Katherine flags 1589
13:31:20 <dmontalvo> Kathy: Second passed -- The description has been expanded
13:31:47 <dmontalvo> Tom: Do we need to add roles to that or it's OK for it to be "bad code"?
13:32:00 <dmontalvo> Kathy: We generally want everything to pass in all scenarios
13:32:17 <dmontalvo> Tom: At a minimum a role="button" would be required
13:33:49 <dmontalvo> Kathy: This is not ready to publish since the atomic rules are not ready
13:33:53 <dmontalvo> ... We need to find a liaison
13:34:21 <dmontalvo> Tom: I could take these two together
13:34:39 <dmontalvo> ... I can take the composite too
13:35:04 <dmontalvo> zakim, take up next
13:35:04 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- 9:40 with CG: Label in Name Understanding update and Related ACT changes -- taken up [from kathy]
13:35:45 <kathy> https://github.com/w3c/wcag/pull/2725/files
13:36:10 <dmontalvo> Kathy: The AG is trying to update the understanding for label in name
13:36:31 <dmontalvo> ... They have asked ACT to review this PR and I need to submit our comments
13:37:12 <dmontalvo> ... They've created some additional guidance for mathematical expressions, and for text in parenthesis
13:38:37 <kathy> https://github.com/act-rules/act-rules.github.io/pull/2075
13:38:56 <dmontalvo> ... I just added a question, is it possible to add some outliers to this? U.S. puts area codes are in parenthesis
13:39:23 <dmontalvo> Kathy: Also, this is work from the CG on how to evaluate this if the above PR is merged
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13:45:49 <dmontalvo> Kathy: The CG has some updates on their PR to handle these changes from AGWG Understanding documents
13:45:56 <Jean-Yves> present+
13:46:27 <dmontalvo> ... AGWG has asked for ACT feedback. I'd like for us to discuss these changes together
13:46:38 <CarlosD> present+
13:46:48 <dmontalvo> .. CG PR is 2075
13:47:38 <dmontalvo> ... It seems Dan that when you looked through this they were in alignment with you
13:48:45 <dmontalvo> s/with you/with your algorithm/
13:50:49 <dmontalvo> Kathy: We will start with the mathematical expressions section. Any concerns with what they are suggesting here?
13:51:22 <dmontalvo> Mark: Voice Control on the mac transformed punctuation into spaces in my tested. That is an issue with mathematical expressions
13:51:51 <dmontalvo> Kathy: How would you like to phrase that?
13:52:36 <dmontalvo> Mark: My question is can Voice recognition distinguish between mathematical expressions where punctuation is important andd other strings where they are not as important?
13:52:50 <dmontalvo> ... That seems difficult to do in software. In the rules, ti's just about how AT does that
13:53:31 <dmontalvo> Mark: Someone who uses these AT for real may have a better handle at it
13:54:10 <dmontalvo> ... Also, there are several similar looking characters that are difficult to distinguish just by looking at them on screen. Minus signs, dashes, hyphens, etc
13:55:18 <dmontalvo> Jean-Yves: If you use x for multiplication in your label there might be a mismatch
13:55:39 <dmontalvo> ... If you use the x in the label use it in the name as well and people will figure it out
13:56:08 <dmontalvo> Mark: If you say "click a x b" the speech recognition software may find it hard to match it
13:56:33 <dmontalvo> Dan: I think that is true. My PR skips around this for the reason Jean-Yves just mentioned
13:56:55 <dmontalvo> ... My algorithm filters these out. We may have false negatives but we can deal with that
13:57:17 <dmontalvo> Tom: Is there any concern with modern technologies (mainly AI)?
13:58:02 <dmontalvo> Dan: WCAG does well in opening the door to AI as long as AI is able to tell the difference
13:58:30 <dmontalvo> ... These scenarios could be improved with better implementations that better handle AI
13:59:10 <dmontalvo> Kathy: Are we OK as long as name and label usse the same characters we are good if we rely on AT to translate them accordingly?
13:59:56 <dmontalvo> Jean-Yves: This PR is not changing anything of that. The text is the same
14:00:00 <dmontalvo> Carlos: Agree
14:00:42 <dmontalvo> Kathy: Text in parenthesis won't be required to be part of the accessible name
14:01:12 <dmontalvo> Dan: I tend to write phone numbers in parenthesis, but that is not what everyone seems to do these days
14:01:57 <dmontalvo> Tom: In some phones, phone numbers are automatically converted into space format as you type them
14:02:07 <dmontalvo> ... and add the brackets
14:03:03 <dmontalvo> Jean-Yves: I think this level of detail is OK for WCAG, not so for us. Generally we should probably discard text in brackets even though it generates some false negative
14:04:37 <dmontalvo> Carlos: Agree with Jean-YVes on this. For phone numbers, I suppose that is probably most relevant in the U.S.
14:05:10 <dmontalvo> Jean-Yves: We used them in France when we had just 8 digits. No more since we changed to 10 digits 20 years ago
14:05:27 <dmontalvo> ... Maybe other countries outside the U.S. and Europe do use them
14:06:01 <dmontalvo> Kathy: Area code is compulsory now, used to be optional in the past
14:06:29 <dmontalvo> Tom: You can suppress the area code if you are calling the same area
14:06:35 <dmontalvo> Kathy: We are all OK with this, right?
14:06:47 <dmontalvo> [[Everybody agrees]]
14:06:58 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:06:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/11-wcag-act-minutes.html dmontalvo
14:07:49 <Jean-Yves> Jean-Yves has left #wcag-act
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15:02:52 <dmontalvo> s/Canceling next two meetings/Canceling next two meetings. Daniel will join in case someone wants to work on the GitHub guidance/
15:03:32 <dmontalvo> s/easy or if/easier if/
15:04:28 <dmontalvo> s/ex pectation/expectation/
15:04:44 <dmontalvo> s/infavor/in favor/
15:05:02 <dmontalvo> s/tabing/tabbing/
15:05:58 <dmontalvo> s/?Ready/Ready/
15:07:00 <dmontalvo> s/The AG/AG/
15:08:28 <dmontalvo> s/ti's/it's/
15:11:47 <dmontalvo> s/Are we OK as long as name and label usse the same characters we are good if we rely on AT to translate them accordingly?/Are we OK relying on AT as long as name and label use the same characters?/
15:12:46 <dmontalvo> s/Jean-YVes/Jean-Yves/
15:13:11 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:13:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/11-wcag-act-minutes.html dmontalvo
15:13:21 <dmontalvo> Chair: Kathy
15:13:23 <dmontalvo> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:13:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/11-wcag-act-minutes.html dmontalvo