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14:07:46 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/04/05-rdf-star-irc
14:07:52 <AndyS> present+
14:08:15 <AndyS> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:08:15 <Zakim> Present: AndyS
14:08:36 <AndyS> I just added the bots so earlier "present+" won't have been seen
14:08:47 <niklasl> present+
14:09:37 <niklasl> q+
14:09:40 <tl> present+
14:09:59 <gkellogg> present+
14:10:51 <Souri> q+
14:10:55 <enrico> q+
14:11:41 <gkellogg> ack niklasl
14:11:57 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #rdf-star
14:14:39 <enrico> ack souri
14:15:50 <tl> q+
14:17:37 <gkellogg> ack enrico
14:19:45 <AndyS> ack tl
14:19:46 <enrico> ack tl
14:22:52 <TallTed> TallTed has joined #rdf-star
14:23:05 <AndyS> AndyS has changed the topic to: RDF-Star WG - Semantics TF - 2024-04-05
14:23:11 <enrico> q+
14:23:48 <Souri> q+
14:26:10 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:26:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/05-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:26:28 <TallTed> code fences are helpful, even in IRC. (triple backtick on a line by itself, before and after, below.  see the pretty minutes, to see the full effect.)
14:26:30 <TallTed> ```
14:26:32 <TallTed> :e rdf:reifies <<( :s1 :p1 :o1 )>> .
14:26:34 <TallTed> :e rdf:reifies <<( :s2 :p2 :o2 )>> .
14:26:36 <TallTed> ASK WHERE { _:x rdf:reifies <<( :s1 _:y :o2 )>> }  ==> TRUE
14:26:38 <TallTed> ```
14:26:42 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:26:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/05-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:26:46 <TallTed> present+
14:27:04 <TallTed> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:28:20 <TallTed> present+ souri, enrico
14:29:46 <TallTed> i/zakim, who is on the phone?/scribe: none/
14:29:46 <TallTed> i/scribe: none/chair: ad-hoc/
14:30:33 <TallTed> previous meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/04/04-rdf-star-minutes.html
14:30:33 <TallTed> next meeting: https://www.w3.org/2024/04/11-rdf-star-minutes.html
14:31:36 <TallTed> i|zakim, who is on the phone?|agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d0cd306-0be8-4267-865a-6272cc8d9da4/20240405T100000/
14:31:40 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:31:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/05-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:31:56 <AndyS> q?
14:32:02 <AndyS> q+
14:32:35 <TallTed> q?
14:32:38 <gkellogg> ack enrico
14:32:53 <gkellogg> ack Souri
14:33:31 <enrico> enrico has joined #rdf-star
14:33:36 <enrico> present+
14:33:43 <enrico> q?
14:39:22 <TallTed> enrico:
14:39:22 <TallTed> ```
14:39:22 <TallTed> :w1 rdf:reifies <<( :liz : married :richard )>> .
14:39:22 <TallTed> :w1 :location :miami .
14:39:22 <TallTed> :w2 rdf:reifies <<( :liz : married :richard )>> .
14:39:23 <TallTed> :w2  :location :las-vegas .
14:39:25 <TallTed> :w1 rdf:reifies <<( :liz :married-in :las-vegas )>> .
14:39:27 <TallTed> :w1 :groom :richard .
14:39:29 <TallTed> :w2 rdf:reifies <<( :liz :married-in :miami )>> .
14:39:31 <TallTed> :w2 :groom :richard .
14:39:33 <TallTed> ```
14:39:35 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:39:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/05-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:39:59 <tl> q+
14:43:31 <TallTed> q+
14:43:41 <niklasl> A reification (here, "reifier") is some kind of concretization; more "real" ("detailed") than the simple triple (which has to be reified when proven too abstract).
14:44:38 <AndyS> ack AndyS
14:44:40 <TallTed> +1000, http-range-14
14:44:43 <TallTed> ack tl
14:46:12 <AndyS> q+
14:47:05 <enrico> :wedding rdf:type :wedding .
14:47:08 <niklasl> +1, a type for the subject (here, the "reifier") helps *a lot*.
14:47:16 <AndyS> ack TallTed
14:47:20 <enrico> :w1 rdf:type :wedding .
14:48:47 <tl> q+
14:49:30 <niklasl> :w1 a :Wedding; rdf:reifies <<( :liz :married-in :las-vegas )>> .
14:49:31 <enrico> q+
14:49:31 <niklasl> :t1 a :TripleToken; rdf:reifies <<( :liz :married-in :las-vegas )>> .
14:49:35 <niklasl> :c1 a :WeddingCertificate; rdf:reifies <<( :liz :married-in :las-vegas )>> .
14:49:40 <AndyS> ack AndyS
14:50:08 <TallTed> q+
14:51:15 <Souri> ```:w1 rdf:reifies <<( :liz :married :richard )>> ; a rdf:EVent .
14:51:28 <TallTed> ```
14:51:28 <TallTed> :e#reifier rdf:reifies <<( :s1 :p1 :o1 )>> .
14:51:28 <TallTed> :e#reifier rdf:reifies <<( :s2 :p2 :o2 )>> .
14:51:28 <TallTed> ASK WHERE { _:x rdf:reifies <<( :s1 _:y :o2 )>> }  ==> TRUE
14:51:28 <TallTed> ```
14:51:28 <enrico> :t1 a :TripleToken; rdf:reifies <<( :liz :married-in :las-vegas )>> .
14:51:33 <enrico> :c1 a :WeddingCertificate; rdf:reifies <<( :liz :married-in :las-vegas )>> .
14:51:38 <enrico> :w1 a :Wedding; rdf:reifies <<( :liz :married-in :las-vegas )>> .
14:51:43 <enrico> :w1 :location :miami .
14:51:49 <enrico> :w1 :groom :richard .
14:51:54 <enrico> :w1 :bride :liz .
14:51:57 <Souri> :w1R rdf:reifies <<( :liz :married :richard )>> ; a rdf:Reifier .
14:52:03 <Souri> ```
14:52:11 <AndyS> ack tl
14:52:30 <TallTed> i/:w1R rdf:reifies/```/
14:52:37 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:52:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/05-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:53:19 <TallTed> s/```/
14:53:20 <AndyS> ack enrico
14:53:27 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:53:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/05-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:53:36 <enrico> :w1 rdf:reifies <<( :liz : married :richard )>> .
14:53:53 <TallTed> s/RRSAgent, draft minutes//
14:53:55 <TallTed> s/RRSAgent, draft minutes//
14:54:05 <AndyS> ack TallTed
14:54:26 <niklasl> HttpRange-14 is more about what 200 OK means than what e.g. Frege meant with sense and reference (but there is  relationship of course). In no way does <x> denote different things in the same RDF Graph. If <x> is supposed to denote a work of art and dereferencing it responds 200 OK, HTTP states that you are served a representation (encoding) of
14:54:26 <niklasl> that information resource. If the web page is licenced as CC-BY and the work of art is not, there is a conflation of identity with legal consequences.
14:54:56 <niklasl> q+
14:56:30 <tl> +1 to enrico's/niklas' solution above. of course, creating two different reifiers - one to talk about the triple, another to talk about what the triple is about - solves the problem.
14:56:41 <niklasl> The *real* problem is the notion of *identity*.
14:56:44 <enrico> q+
14:57:03 <AndyS> q+
14:59:03 <AndyS> ack niklasl
14:59:30 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:59:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/05-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
14:59:52 <TallTed> s/RRSAgent, draft minutes//
14:59:53 <TallTed> ```
15:00:05 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:00:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/05-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:03:29 <enrico> q?
15:04:34 <tl> q+
15:04:46 <AndyS> ack enrico
15:08:57 <Souri> q+
15:09:55 <niklasl> We clarify ("approach a fixation") of an identity (the thing denoted) by describing it. Eventually (in theory) it is crystal clear and objectively unambiguous, *or* a paradox occurs (through an inconsistency/contradiction). In practice, we mostly just strive to avoid paradoxes (using OWL, SHACL, etc.). Using only as many
15:09:55 <niklasl> "energy-efficient/-conservative" simple statements as needed for our use cases (hopefully enough understood to hold within the application over time).
15:11:50 <niklasl> A while ago I tried to start a "motivating example" here: https://hackmd.io/@niklasl/HJ3IudCdp I'd love to collaborate more on this.
15:11:56 <AndyS> ack AndyS
15:12:43 <niklasl> q+
15:13:03 <AndyS> ack tl
15:14:25 <enrico> q+
15:14:54 <niklasl> We agreed, yesterday, to close the issue about allowing triple terms as subjects: https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/80
15:14:55 <gb> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-concepts/issues/80 -> CLOSED Issue 80 where are triple terms allowed (by pfps) [spec:substantive]
15:16:02 <enrico> ack souri
15:16:59 <AndyS> My understanding was that we encourge talking about the occurrence - and through the occurrence, talk about the triple. This indirection keeps statements apart - the opening hours example.
15:17:26 <AndyS> s/encourge/encourage/
15:17:28 <enrico> q+
15:19:27 <TallTed> this discussion suggests we might yet want to revisit that (preliminary) decision...
15:19:34 <AndyS> q?
15:19:45 <AndyS> ack niklasl
15:20:35 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:20:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/05-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
15:20:47 <niklasl> https://github.com/w3c/rdf-ucr/wiki/RDF-Star-for-Talking-About-Multiple-Triples-at-Once
15:22:56 <enrico> q?
15:25:39 <enrico> ack enrico
15:25:44 <niklasl> q+
15:29:04 <TallTed> Turtles, all the way down... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtles_all_the_way_down
15:29:32 <enrico> ack niklas
15:31:38 <niklasl> As Andy says, we need to make it clear that we generalize reification, and concretely show why, and how to put it to good use.
15:33:04 <Souri> Is a triple-term just a representation of a triple OR a binary relationship between the subject and object in the triple-term. Can be both, IMO, and will depend on how one wants to model their data. If mixed use is needed, they can use separate reifiers for the same triple-term.
15:35:54 <TallTed> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:35:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/04/05-rdf-star-minutes.html TallTed
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