IRC log of i18n on 2024-03-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:25:54 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:25:58 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-i18n-irc
14:26:14 [agendabot]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d544156-352c-46f2-b6ec-383b4e2462fb/20240328T150000/
14:26:14 [agendabot]
clear agenda
14:26:14 [agendabot]
agenda+ Agenda Review
14:26:14 [agendabot]
agenda+ Action Items
14:26:16 [agendabot]
agenda+ Info Share
14:26:18 [agendabot]
agenda+ RADAR Review
14:26:20 [agendabot]
agenda+ Pending Issue Review
14:26:22 [addison]
agenda+ MathML review
14:26:23 [agendabot]
agenda+ FPWD of Khmer Layout Requirements
14:26:25 [agendabot]
agenda+ RFC9457 and string-meta
14:26:27 [agendabot]
agenda+ String-meta best practices for producers
14:26:30 [agendabot]
agenda+ Specdev changes to support IDNs
14:26:32 [agendabot]
agenda+ AOB?
14:26:41 [addison]
Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference
14:26:46 [addison]
Chair: Addison Phillips
14:27:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-i18n-minutes.html addison
14:28:36 [addison]
agenda?
14:29:30 [addison]
agenda+ [Tanych/accept-language] I18N objections to reducing accept-language
14:45:41 [addison]
addison has joined #i18n
14:56:56 [addison]
present+ Addison
15:02:08 [addison]
present+ Bert, JcK
15:03:49 [xfq]
present+
15:05:46 [addison]
present+ Richard
15:06:54 [bert9]
bert9 has joined #i18n
15:07:22 [bert9]
bert9 has left #i18n
15:08:22 [JcK]
JcK has joined #i18n
15:08:42 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:08:42 [Zakim]
agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:08:43 [addison]
agenda?
15:08:54 [xfq]
scribe: xfq
15:09:31 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 2
15:09:31 [Zakim]
agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:09:44 [addison]
#85
15:09:44 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/85 -> Action 85 send a note to privacy folks saying we did a review with notes about i18n (on aphillips) due 2024-03-28
15:10:03 [addison]
#84
15:10:04 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/84 -> Action 84 follow up on i18n-glossary#51 (on r12a) due 2024-03-21
15:10:44 [xfq]
r12a: re #84, I wrote what I think we should do in the issue and somebody needs to do it
15:11:18 [addison]
#82
15:11:18 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/82 -> Action 82 publish khmer lreq with new format (on r12a) due 2024-03-21
15:11:34 [addison]
#79
15:11:35 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/79 -> Action 79 schedule a follow-up call with WHATNOT in ~April (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07
15:12:01 [addison]
#78
15:12:01 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/78 -> Action 78 compare infra to i18n-glossary export list and report back (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07
15:12:12 [addison]
#77
15:12:12 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/77 -> Action 77 create an issue against html requesting the list of named entities based on work in action 73 (on r12a) due 2024-03-07
15:12:45 [r12a]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1841
15:12:46 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1841 -> Issue 1841 Request for additional named entities for invisible/ambiguous characters (by r12a) [pending] [s:html] [t:char_ref]
15:12:57 [xfq]
r12a: re #77, I have created a pending issue for people to look at
15:13:03 [addison]
#76
15:13:03 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/76 -> Action 76 propose best practices for producers and for examples in specs in string-meta (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07
15:13:21 [addison]
#75
15:13:22 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/75 -> Action 75 work on developing new specdev material about IDNs/domain names/etc. (on xfq) due 2024-02-29
15:13:40 [addison]
#43
15:13:40 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/43 -> Action 43 pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18
15:13:58 [addison]
#33
15:13:58 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips)
15:14:15 [addison]
#12
15:14:15 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/12 -> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023
15:14:46 [xfq]
addison: re #12, I think I'm done editing the explainer
15:14:55 [addison]
#8
15:14:56 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Follow up on the status of Canvas and formatted text (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023
15:15:02 [xfq]
... we can review it again together in an upcoming call
15:15:15 [addison]
#4
15:15:16 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a) due 27 Jul 2023
15:15:33 [r12a]
https://github.com/w3c/respec/issues/4462
15:15:33 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/respec/issues/4462 -> Issue 4462 Provide a shortcut for typing character markup (by r12a) [Feature request]
15:15:49 [xfq]
r12a: re #4, seems to be potentially making some progress, see ^
15:16:10 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 3
15:16:10 [Zakim]
agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:16:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:17:10 [xfq]
JcK: more colors and cuter fonts in the new IRC client
15:17:22 [r12a4]
r12a4 has joined #i18n
15:19:11 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 4
15:19:11 [Zakim]
agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:19:17 [xfq]
[GB 18030 discussions]
15:19:21 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1
15:20:07 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 5
15:20:07 [Zakim]
agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:21:00 [addison]
w3c/i18n-activity#1841
15:21:01 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1841 -> Issue 1841 Request for additional named entities for invisible/ambiguous characters (by r12a) [pending] [s:html] [t:char_ref]
15:21:18 [addison]
agenda?
15:21:47 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 7
15:21:47 [Zakim]
agendum 7 -- FPWD of Khmer Layout Requirements -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:22:25 [r12a4]
https://w3c.github.io/sealreq/khmer/indexnew.html
15:22:34 [xfq]
addison: r12a, you want to propose the first draft note of the Khmer Layout Requirements, correct?
15:22:42 [xfq]
r12a: correct
15:23:02 [r12a4]
https://w3c.github.io/sealreq/khmer/index.html
15:23:11 [xfq]
r12a: see ^
15:23:32 [xfq]
addison: we need to vote on publishing this
15:23:35 [xfq]
<xfq> +1
15:23:36 [addison]
+1
15:23:37 [r12a4]
+1
15:23:39 [Bert]
+1
15:23:47 [JcK]
0
15:23:53 [r12a4]
https://w3c.github.io/tlreq/index.html
15:24:00 [JcK]
Have not been able to find time to review
15:24:04 [addison]
RESOLVED: publish Khmer Layout Requirements as FPWD
15:24:13 [r12a4]
https://w3c.github.io/tlreq/indexnew.html
15:24:26 [xfq]
r12a: here's another link for Tibetan
15:24:36 [xfq]
... I'm doing the same for Tibetan
15:24:54 [xfq]
... I realised that I wasn't gonna put the links at the bottom of the section
15:25:02 [xfq]
... I was going to put them at the top of the section
15:25:11 [xfq]
... because that's more useful and clear
15:25:16 [addison]
agenda?
15:25:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-i18n-minutes.html addison
15:25:39 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 6
15:25:39 [Zakim]
agendum 6 -- MathML review -- taken up [from addison]
15:25:45 [xfq]
addison: cool. Thank you.
15:26:23 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending+label%3As%3Amathml
15:26:44 [addison]
#1834
15:26:45 [gb]
Issue 1834 not found
15:26:52 [addison]
w3c/i18n-activity#1834
15:26:52 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1834 -> Issue 1834 Clarify note on single character of mi as italic (by himorin) [pending] [s:mathml] [wg:math]
15:27:28 [xfq]
Bert: about #1834, it's not quite clear what the spec is saying
15:27:38 [xfq]
... whether it's a letter
15:28:22 [xfq]
... as far as I'm concerned, the example is allowed to be a little less precise than the normative text
15:29:14 [JcK]
Richard, once the Tibetan version is ready to be made a bit more public, I probably have a lead on good reviewers who read and write the language daily are are very concerned about it.
15:29:35 [addison]
... On text nodes containing a single characters (after whitespace has been removed)...
15:30:48 [xfq]
Bert: @@1
15:31:02 [addison]
w3c/i18n-activity#1837
15:31:02 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1837 -> Issue 1837 lspace/rspace have confusing names (by bert-github) [pending] [s:mathml]
15:32:01 [r12a-webkit]
r12a-webkit has joined #i18n
15:32:13 [xfq]
Bert: the lspace and rspace attributes in mathml are very old
15:32:31 [xfq]
... they're already in the first mathml which is 20+ years old
15:32:56 [xfq]
... they are now logical
15:33:15 [xfq]
... so we could add a note to say that it's not physical
15:34:15 [Bert]
https://www.w3.org/TR/mathml-core/#layout-of-mrow
15:34:27 [xfq]
... 2 possible places, the first intro of the attributes
15:34:27 [xfq]
... or how it is laid out
15:35:06 [addison]
w3c/i18n-activity#1838
15:35:06 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1838 -> Issue 1838 Whether/when to mirror operators (by bert-github) [pending] [s:mathml]
15:35:10 [xfq]
addison: objections?
15:36:38 [xfq]
Bert: certain operators are mirrored in rtl formulas
15:36:44 [xfq]
... mathml doesn't mention this
15:36:52 [addison]
w3/i18n-activity#1839
15:36:52 [gb]
Issue 1839 not found
15:37:07 [addison]
w3c/i18n-activity#1839
15:37:08 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1839 -> Issue 1839 Define that (and how) glyph assemblies are mirrored in rtl formulas (by bert-github) [pending] [s:mathml]
15:39:15 [xfq]
Bert: @@2
15:39:18 [xfq]
... There is a document on the Unicode site
15:39:22 [xfq]
https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2022/22026r-non-bidi-mirroring.pdf
15:39:33 [xfq]
Bert: from Kent Karlsson
15:39:45 [xfq]
... from 2 years ago
15:39:58 [addison]
action: addison: ping the UTC about the status of the mirroring proposal
15:40:05 [gb]
Created -> action #86 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/86
15:40:05 [xfq]
... talks exactly about these extension characters
15:40:12 [xfq]
... but I haven't found any other reference to that
15:40:23 [addison]
w3c/i18n-activity#1840
15:40:24 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1840 -> Issue 1840 Explain the mapping tables (appendix C) (by bert-github) [pending] [s:mathml]
15:41:59 [xfq]
Bert: the MathML3 spec and the MathML Core spec are not consistent
15:42:04 [xfq]
... it's a bit unclear
15:42:35 [xfq]
... my question is what are those tables for
15:42:47 [xfq]
... are they indeed for that purpose and why
15:43:04 [xfq]
... if so, why doesn't the spec say that they are for that purpose?
15:43:13 [xfq]
... why are those tables are there?
15:44:23 [addison]
agenda?
15:44:49 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 8
15:44:49 [Zakim]
agendum 8 -- RFC9457 and string-meta -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:45:17 [addison]
RFC9457 defines a JSON (and alternate XML) structure for returning error information. Seems like they could follow our guidance in string-meta and include lang/dir metadata in the document. They do provide for localization externally by doing language negotiation off of Accept-Language, but it seems criminal not to tell the recipient what language
15:45:17 [addison]
was negotiated??
15:46:17 [xfq]
addison: RFC 9457 describes a JSON structure and separately in XML for responding with additional info when an error is produced
15:46:49 [xfq]
... for example, if you produce the forbidden HTTP response it could include human readable description of what was forbidden and why
15:47:00 [xfq]
... like your password was wrong or something like that
15:47:23 [xfq]
... that standard does not include any language or direction annotation for the human language strings
15:47:31 [xfq]
... it seems like it ought to
15:47:45 [xfq]
... there doesn't seem to be a reason not to provide it
15:48:54 [addison]
action: addison: write to IETF ADs about RFC9457 with JcK's assistance
15:48:55 [gb]
Created -> action #87 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/87
15:49:16 [addison]
rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9457.html
15:49:22 [addison]
agenda?
15:49:36 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 9
15:49:38 [Zakim]
agendum 9 -- String-meta best practices for producers -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:49:45 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/86
15:49:45 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/86 -> Pull Request 86 Add best practices for writing examples and for producers (by aphillips)
15:49:51 [addison]
https://deploy-preview-86--string-meta.netlify.app/#bp-producers
15:51:11 [xfq]
addison: I had an action item to write best practices for writing examples and for producers
15:51:20 [xfq]
... I welcome comments on it
15:51:24 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 10
15:51:24 [Zakim]
agendum 10 -- Specdev changes to support IDNs -- taken up [from agendabot]
15:51:31 [addison]
https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/128
15:51:32 [gb]
https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/128 -> Pull Request 128 New section about IDNs (by xfq)
15:51:37 [addison]
https://deploy-preview-128--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#idn
15:52:52 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 12
15:52:52 [Zakim]
agendum 12 -- [Tanych/accept-language] I18N objections to reducing accept-language -- taken up [from addison]
15:53:00 [xfq]
xfq: not ready for review yet
15:53:23 [addison]
https://github.com/Tanych/accept-language/issues/10#issuecomment-2018872665
15:53:23 [gb]
https://github.com/Tanych/accept-language/issues/10 -> Issue 10 I18N objections to reducing accept-language (by aphillips)
15:53:33 [xfq]
addison: some time ago, there's a proposal to reduce accept-language to a single value
15:53:54 [addison]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2024JanMar/0114.html
15:53:55 [xfq]
... I was actioned at some point to reply to them saying we don't think that's a great idea
15:54:00 [xfq]
... with 2 comments
15:54:45 [xfq]
... safari users can only have one language preference
15:55:23 [xfq]
... the second comment is: can you give me any site or code example to understand better about the accept-language use cases for i18n?
15:55:24 [r12a-webkit]
https://www.w3.org/International/articlelist#navigating
15:55:39 [xfq]
... do we have an article about language negotiation somewhere?
15:55:47 [xfq]
... I haven't looked at it in a while
15:56:00 [xfq]
r12a-webkit: there's a bunch of stuff here ^
15:56:21 [xfq]
... there is even an article called Accept-Language used for locale setting
15:56:44 [xfq]
addison: the stuff here hasn't been updated in a while
15:58:57 [xfq]
addison: I have a long thing that I wrote outside of standards land about language negotiation
15:59:26 [xfq]
... which with only a little bit of work could probably be adapted appropriately
15:59:36 [xfq]
... I don't have time right now, though
16:01:06 [xfq]
r12a-webkit: why do they want to do that?
16:01:47 [xfq]
xfq: to reduce fingerprinting
16:02:43 [xfq]
addison: the A-L header is potentially a fingerprinting vector because if you put enough things in it, it could be unique
16:04:39 [addison]
agenda?
16:04:53 [addison]
zakim, take up agendum 11
16:04:53 [Zakim]
agendum 11 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot]
16:04:53 [xfq]
xfq: @@
16:05:22 [xfq]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-i18n-minutes.html xfq
16:05:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-i18n-minutes.html addison
16:05:55 [addison]
zakim, who is here?
16:05:55 [Zakim]
Present: Addison, Bert, JcK, xfq, Richard
16:05:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see r12a-webkit, JcK, addison, RRSAgent, Zakim, xfq, r12a, atsushi_, mbinzo, fantasai, Mek, csarven, koji, alastairc, astearns, Rachael, hadleybeeman, florian, eemeli,
16:05:55 [Zakim]
... cwilso, gonzu_15, matrix638, James1, MojGraph, BoKilgore, SintayewGashaw, Github, imlostlmao, clafase, hsivonen, Bert, agendabot, gb