14:25:54 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 14:25:58 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-i18n-irc 14:26:14 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d544156-352c-46f2-b6ec-383b4e2462fb/20240328T150000/ 14:26:14 clear agenda 14:26:14 agenda+ Agenda Review 14:26:14 agenda+ Action Items 14:26:16 agenda+ Info Share 14:26:18 agenda+ RADAR Review 14:26:20 agenda+ Pending Issue Review 14:26:22 agenda+ MathML review 14:26:23 agenda+ FPWD of Khmer Layout Requirements 14:26:25 agenda+ RFC9457 and string-meta 14:26:27 agenda+ String-meta best practices for producers 14:26:30 agenda+ Specdev changes to support IDNs 14:26:32 agenda+ AOB? 14:26:41 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 14:26:46 Chair: Addison Phillips 14:27:26 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-i18n-minutes.html addison 14:28:36 agenda? 14:29:30 agenda+ [Tanych/accept-language] I18N objections to reducing accept-language 14:45:41 addison has joined #i18n 14:56:56 present+ Addison 15:02:08 present+ Bert, JcK 15:03:49 present+ 15:05:46 present+ Richard 15:06:54 bert9 has joined #i18n 15:07:22 bert9 has left #i18n 15:08:22 JcK has joined #i18n 15:08:42 zakim, take up agendum 1 15:08:42 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:08:43 agenda? 15:08:54 scribe: xfq 15:09:31 zakim, take up agendum 2 15:09:31 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:09:44 #85 15:09:44 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/85 -> Action 85 send a note to privacy folks saying we did a review with notes about i18n (on aphillips) due 2024-03-28 15:10:03 #84 15:10:04 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/84 -> Action 84 follow up on i18n-glossary#51 (on r12a) due 2024-03-21 15:10:44 r12a: re #84, I wrote what I think we should do in the issue and somebody needs to do it 15:11:18 #82 15:11:18 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/82 -> Action 82 publish khmer lreq with new format (on r12a) due 2024-03-21 15:11:34 #79 15:11:35 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/79 -> Action 79 schedule a follow-up call with WHATNOT in ~April (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07 15:12:01 #78 15:12:01 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/78 -> Action 78 compare infra to i18n-glossary export list and report back (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07 15:12:12 #77 15:12:12 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/77 -> Action 77 create an issue against html requesting the list of named entities based on work in action 73 (on r12a) due 2024-03-07 15:12:45 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1841 15:12:46 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1841 -> Issue 1841 Request for additional named entities for invisible/ambiguous characters (by r12a) [pending] [s:html] [t:char_ref] 15:12:57 r12a: re #77, I have created a pending issue for people to look at 15:13:03 #76 15:13:03 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/76 -> Action 76 propose best practices for producers and for examples in specs in string-meta (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07 15:13:21 #75 15:13:22 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/75 -> Action 75 work on developing new specdev material about IDNs/domain names/etc. (on xfq) due 2024-02-29 15:13:40 #43 15:13:40 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/43 -> Action 43 pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18 15:13:58 #33 15:13:58 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips) 15:14:15 #12 15:14:15 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/12 -> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023 15:14:46 addison: re #12, I think I'm done editing the explainer 15:14:55 #8 15:14:56 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Follow up on the status of Canvas and formatted text (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023 15:15:02 ... we can review it again together in an upcoming call 15:15:15 #4 15:15:16 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a) due 27 Jul 2023 15:15:33 https://github.com/w3c/respec/issues/4462 15:15:33 https://github.com/w3c/respec/issues/4462 -> Issue 4462 Provide a shortcut for typing character markup (by r12a) [Feature request] 15:15:49 r12a: re #4, seems to be potentially making some progress, see ^ 15:16:10 zakim, take up agendum 3 15:16:10 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:16:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:17:10 JcK: more colors and cuter fonts in the new IRC client 15:17:22 r12a4 has joined #i18n 15:19:11 zakim, take up agendum 4 15:19:11 agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:19:17 [GB 18030 discussions] 15:19:21 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1 15:20:07 zakim, take up agendum 5 15:20:07 agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:21:00 w3c/i18n-activity#1841 15:21:01 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1841 -> Issue 1841 Request for additional named entities for invisible/ambiguous characters (by r12a) [pending] [s:html] [t:char_ref] 15:21:18 agenda? 15:21:47 zakim, take up agendum 7 15:21:47 agendum 7 -- FPWD of Khmer Layout Requirements -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:22:25 https://w3c.github.io/sealreq/khmer/indexnew.html 15:22:34 addison: r12a, you want to propose the first draft note of the Khmer Layout Requirements, correct? 15:22:42 r12a: correct 15:23:02 https://w3c.github.io/sealreq/khmer/index.html 15:23:11 r12a: see ^ 15:23:32 addison: we need to vote on publishing this 15:23:35 +1 15:23:36 +1 15:23:37 +1 15:23:39 +1 15:23:47 0 15:23:53 https://w3c.github.io/tlreq/index.html 15:24:00 Have not been able to find time to review 15:24:04 RESOLVED: publish Khmer Layout Requirements as FPWD 15:24:13 https://w3c.github.io/tlreq/indexnew.html 15:24:26 r12a: here's another link for Tibetan 15:24:36 ... I'm doing the same for Tibetan 15:24:54 ... I realised that I wasn't gonna put the links at the bottom of the section 15:25:02 ... I was going to put them at the top of the section 15:25:11 ... because that's more useful and clear 15:25:16 agenda? 15:25:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-i18n-minutes.html addison 15:25:39 zakim, take up agendum 6 15:25:39 agendum 6 -- MathML review -- taken up [from addison] 15:25:45 addison: cool. Thank you. 15:26:23 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending+label%3As%3Amathml 15:26:44 #1834 15:26:45 Issue 1834 not found 15:26:52 w3c/i18n-activity#1834 15:26:52 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1834 -> Issue 1834 Clarify note on single character of mi as italic (by himorin) [pending] [s:mathml] [wg:math] 15:27:28 Bert: about #1834, it's not quite clear what the spec is saying 15:27:38 ... whether it's a letter 15:28:22 ... as far as I'm concerned, the example is allowed to be a little less precise than the normative text 15:29:14 Richard, once the Tibetan version is ready to be made a bit more public, I probably have a lead on good reviewers who read and write the language daily are are very concerned about it. 15:29:35 ... On text nodes containing a single characters (after whitespace has been removed)... 15:30:48 Bert: @@1 15:31:02 w3c/i18n-activity#1837 15:31:02 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1837 -> Issue 1837 lspace/rspace have confusing names (by bert-github) [pending] [s:mathml] 15:32:01 r12a-webkit has joined #i18n 15:32:13 Bert: the lspace and rspace attributes in mathml are very old 15:32:31 ... they're already in the first mathml which is 20+ years old 15:32:56 ... they are now logical 15:33:15 ... so we could add a note to say that it's not physical 15:34:15 https://www.w3.org/TR/mathml-core/#layout-of-mrow 15:34:27 ... 2 possible places, the first intro of the attributes 15:34:27 ... or how it is laid out 15:35:06 w3c/i18n-activity#1838 15:35:06 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1838 -> Issue 1838 Whether/when to mirror operators (by bert-github) [pending] [s:mathml] 15:35:10 addison: objections? 15:36:38 Bert: certain operators are mirrored in rtl formulas 15:36:44 ... mathml doesn't mention this 15:36:52 w3/i18n-activity#1839 15:36:52 Issue 1839 not found 15:37:07 w3c/i18n-activity#1839 15:37:08 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1839 -> Issue 1839 Define that (and how) glyph assemblies are mirrored in rtl formulas (by bert-github) [pending] [s:mathml] 15:39:15 Bert: @@2 15:39:18 ... There is a document on the Unicode site 15:39:22 https://www.unicode.org/L2/L2022/22026r-non-bidi-mirroring.pdf 15:39:33 Bert: from Kent Karlsson 15:39:45 ... from 2 years ago 15:39:58 action: addison: ping the UTC about the status of the mirroring proposal 15:40:05 Created -> action #86 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/86 15:40:05 ... talks exactly about these extension characters 15:40:12 ... but I haven't found any other reference to that 15:40:23 w3c/i18n-activity#1840 15:40:24 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1840 -> Issue 1840 Explain the mapping tables (appendix C) (by bert-github) [pending] [s:mathml] 15:41:59 Bert: the MathML3 spec and the MathML Core spec are not consistent 15:42:04 ... it's a bit unclear 15:42:35 ... my question is what are those tables for 15:42:47 ... are they indeed for that purpose and why 15:43:04 ... if so, why doesn't the spec say that they are for that purpose? 15:43:13 ... why are those tables are there? 15:44:23 agenda? 15:44:49 zakim, take up agendum 8 15:44:49 agendum 8 -- RFC9457 and string-meta -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:45:17 RFC9457 defines a JSON (and alternate XML) structure for returning error information. Seems like they could follow our guidance in string-meta and include lang/dir metadata in the document. They do provide for localization externally by doing language negotiation off of Accept-Language, but it seems criminal not to tell the recipient what language 15:45:17 was negotiated?? 15:46:17 addison: RFC 9457 describes a JSON structure and separately in XML for responding with additional info when an error is produced 15:46:49 ... for example, if you produce the forbidden HTTP response it could include human readable description of what was forbidden and why 15:47:00 ... like your password was wrong or something like that 15:47:23 ... that standard does not include any language or direction annotation for the human language strings 15:47:31 ... it seems like it ought to 15:47:45 ... there doesn't seem to be a reason not to provide it 15:48:54 action: addison: write to IETF ADs about RFC9457 with JcK's assistance 15:48:55 Created -> action #87 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/87 15:49:16 rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9457.html 15:49:22 agenda? 15:49:36 zakim, take up agendum 9 15:49:38 agendum 9 -- String-meta best practices for producers -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:49:45 https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/86 15:49:45 https://github.com/w3c/string-meta/pull/86 -> Pull Request 86 Add best practices for writing examples and for producers (by aphillips) 15:49:51 https://deploy-preview-86--string-meta.netlify.app/#bp-producers 15:51:11 addison: I had an action item to write best practices for writing examples and for producers 15:51:20 ... I welcome comments on it 15:51:24 zakim, take up agendum 10 15:51:24 agendum 10 -- Specdev changes to support IDNs -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:51:31 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/128 15:51:32 https://github.com/w3c/bp-i18n-specdev/pull/128 -> Pull Request 128 New section about IDNs (by xfq) 15:51:37 https://deploy-preview-128--bp-i18n-specdev.netlify.app/#idn 15:52:52 zakim, take up agendum 12 15:52:52 agendum 12 -- [Tanych/accept-language] I18N objections to reducing accept-language -- taken up [from addison] 15:53:00 xfq: not ready for review yet 15:53:23 https://github.com/Tanych/accept-language/issues/10#issuecomment-2018872665 15:53:23 https://github.com/Tanych/accept-language/issues/10 -> Issue 10 I18N objections to reducing accept-language (by aphillips) 15:53:33 addison: some time ago, there's a proposal to reduce accept-language to a single value 15:53:54 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2024JanMar/0114.html 15:53:55 ... I was actioned at some point to reply to them saying we don't think that's a great idea 15:54:00 ... with 2 comments 15:54:45 ... safari users can only have one language preference 15:55:23 ... the second comment is: can you give me any site or code example to understand better about the accept-language use cases for i18n? 15:55:24 https://www.w3.org/International/articlelist#navigating 15:55:39 ... do we have an article about language negotiation somewhere? 15:55:47 ... I haven't looked at it in a while 15:56:00 r12a-webkit: there's a bunch of stuff here ^ 15:56:21 ... there is even an article called Accept-Language used for locale setting 15:56:44 addison: the stuff here hasn't been updated in a while 15:58:57 addison: I have a long thing that I wrote outside of standards land about language negotiation 15:59:26 ... which with only a little bit of work could probably be adapted appropriately 15:59:36 ... I don't have time right now, though 16:01:06 r12a-webkit: why do they want to do that? 16:01:47 xfq: to reduce fingerprinting 16:02:43 addison: the A-L header is potentially a fingerprinting vector because if you put enough things in it, it could be unique 16:04:39 agenda? 16:04:53 zakim, take up agendum 11 16:04:53 agendum 11 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:04:53 xfq: @@ 16:05:22 rrsagent, make minutes 16:05:23 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-i18n-minutes.html xfq 16:05:48 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-i18n-minutes.html addison 16:05:55 zakim, who is here? 16:05:55 Present: Addison, Bert, JcK, xfq, Richard 16:05:55 On IRC I see r12a-webkit, JcK, addison, RRSAgent, Zakim, xfq, r12a, atsushi_, mbinzo, fantasai, Mek, csarven, koji, alastairc, astearns, Rachael, hadleybeeman, florian, eemeli, 16:05:55 ... cwilso, gonzu_15, matrix638, James1, MojGraph, BoKilgore, SintayewGashaw, Github, imlostlmao, clafase, hsivonen, Bert, agendabot, gb