17:00:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
17:00:50 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-aria-irc
17:00:50 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
17:00:51 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
17:00:53 <jamesn> agendabot, find agenda
17:00:53 <agendabot> jamesn, OK. This may take a minute...
17:00:53 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240328T130000/
17:00:53 <agendabot> clear agenda
17:00:53 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3TTiwwj
17:00:53 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3vDrTGS
17:00:55 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
17:00:58 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
17:00:59 <jamesn> chair: JamesNurthen
17:01:00 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Data grid example, form field missing accessible name https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2148
17:01:03 <agendabot> agenda+ -> marquee and timer listed as live region roles but have intrinsic aria-live="off" https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2144
17:01:07 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Consider switching to ROLE_SYSTEM_LISTITEM on MSAA + IAccessible2 https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/223
17:01:10 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Question: time can have a name from author? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2075
17:01:13 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Add nameFrom: heading steps to computation after spec addition ARIA PR #1860 is reviewed. https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/182
17:01:16 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Clarify whether author errors in "required accessibility parent/child" (formerly "required context") should be handled by UA https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2137
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17:01:35 <aardrian> present+
17:01:37 <katez> present+
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17:02:00 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:02:24 <pkra> scribe pkra
17:02:48 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:02:48 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/3TTiwwj -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:03:03 <Ray> q+
17:03:13 <SoARIA> present+
17:03:23 <Rahim> present+
17:03:30 <Adam_Page> present+
17:03:32 <keithamus> present+
17:08:15 <Adam_Page> binks and bonks
17:09:24 <pkra> jamesn:  issue triage. accname #234
17:09:48 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:09:48 <Zakim> I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, pkra
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17:09:58 <jamesn> ack Rahim
17:10:04 <jamesn> ack r
17:10:06 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:10:06 <Zakim> agendum 2 -- -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3vDrTGS -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:10:26 <pkra> jamesn: html-aam  #539
17:11:07 <pkra> scotto: addresses issue via html. Handles obsolete elements.
17:11:34 <pkra> ... browsers have recently added visual styles so we might want to match it.
17:11:59 <pkra> jamesn: any reviewers?
17:12:04 <pkra> jcraig: I'll do it.
17:12:26 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:12:26 <Zakim> agendum 3 -- -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:13:21 <pkra> jamesn: do any need additional reviewers?
17:13:28 <pkra> Rahim: not right now
17:13:30 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:13:30 <Zakim> agendum 4 -- -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:14:21 <pkra> jamesn: we have an opening next week
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17:17:06 <BGaraventa> present+ BGaraventa
17:17:28 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:17:28 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> Data grid example, form field missing accessible name https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2148 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:18:03 <pkra> mattking: originally from APG. We transferred it over.
17:18:17 <pkra> ... there's a general question when you have inputs.
17:18:25 <pkra> ... this is grids but likely applies to tables, too.
17:18:37 <pkra> ... grid with input in a cell and column header.
17:18:57 <pkra> ... the accname calculation does not treat row/column headers as accessible names.
17:19:11 <pkra> ... Wilco raised it from a checker perspective.
17:19:24 <pkra> ... adding labels creates negative impacts though.
17:19:50 <pkra> ... e.g., if you have header announcements turned on, then you'll get duplication.
17:19:54 <giacomo-petri> q+
17:19:59 <pkra> ... maybe it's WCAG or HTML but felt like it isn't APG
17:20:04 <jamesn> ack giacomo-petri
17:20:05 <aardrian> Q+
17:20:12 <jamesn> q+
17:20:40 <jamesn> ack aardrian
17:20:43 <pkra> giacomo-petri: I think repetition may be frustrating but perhaps the right way.
17:21:19 <pkra> aardrian: I see 2 issues. There's a bug in the example (fields without accname). Then there's a valid use case for accname calculations to pull from headers if there is no accessible name.
17:21:23 <sarah> q+
17:21:55 <pkra> mattking: in APG, if we add an accessible name, we tell people that this is what we want them to do.
17:22:31 <pkra> aardrian: do you want authors to author it this way, trigger warnings and risk screenreader users problems in sequential?
17:22:38 <pkra> mattking: I think I might.
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17:22:59 <pkra> aardrian: I'm concerned that without the fixes this will cause problems.
17:23:50 <jamesn> ack me
17:24:12 <pkra> jamesn: having something in APG that fails is not a good idea.
17:24:34 <SoARIA> q+
17:24:42 <pkra> ... I've come around on supporting headers in accname calculation.
17:24:54 <Adam_Page> q+
17:24:56 <pkra> ... it seems like it might not even require a change in WCAG.
17:25:09 <jamesn> ack sarah
17:25:37 <pkra> sarah: is the desired solution to have browsers automatically calculate or to say that form fields in table/grid with row/col headers don't need a name.
17:26:10 <pkra> ... one solution is an author convenience (no need for labelledBy) or you have the double labels problem.
17:26:49 <pkra> ... not having a label seems like a WCAG change.
17:26:53 <pkra> jamesn: I'd agree.
17:27:32 <pkra> mattking: I think I also agree on a WCAG change.
17:28:12 <jamesn> ack SoARIA
17:28:51 <aardrian> Q+
17:28:59 <pkra> scotto: if accname updates to auto-name form fields in cell, that would create the verbosity issue; also it would need extra rules (e.g., both headers, two inputs in cell).
17:29:32 <pkra> ... maybe we could also petition screenreaders since they've resolved it for some situations to avoid duplication.
17:30:00 <jamesn> ack Adam_Page
17:30:34 <pkra> Adam_Page: on the APG end, can we add a note to be transparent that it doesn't conform to WCAG right now but we are working on a resolution?
17:30:36 <Adam_Page> ack me
17:30:50 <pkra> jamesn: I agree.
17:30:54 <jamesn> ack aardrian
17:31:06 <BGaraventa> q+
17:31:19 <SoARIA> i'd be surprised if WCAG would entertain changing per this scenario
17:31:20 <pkra> aardrian: I agree - a note would be useful. Even if developers ignore those.
17:31:51 <pkra> ... for accname. the verbosity doesn't change but seems like we could work with screenreaders to reduce the verbosity. Especially since they already have special rules.
17:32:05 <jamesn> ack BGaraventa
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17:32:11 <pkra> ... mostly, I would like to find a way to provide usable labels from what's already there.
17:32:14 <jamesn> agenda?
17:32:21 <Matt_King> q?
17:32:29 <Matt_King> present+
17:32:32 <Matt_King> q+
17:32:37 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
17:32:40 <pkra> bryan: agree on the above. I think the complexity of adding this to accname will be a challenge.
17:32:55 <pkra> mattking: seems like we have 2 near term solutions for APG.
17:32:58 <Rahim> q+
17:33:34 <pkra> ... First, we change accname but since it's programmatic, screenreaders could dedupe.
17:33:47 <pkra> ... second, change WCAG so that lables aren't required in this context.
17:34:04 <jamesn> q+
17:34:25 <pkra> ... third, ask screenreaders to fix the problem so they use the context. Not sure this none is realistic.
17:34:50 <jamesn> ack Rahim
17:34:53 <pkra> ... I'm only aware of 1 situation where they're not good at announcing. Usually it's good row/column information
17:35:07 <pkra> Rahim: regarding inferring name from context more broadly.
17:35:26 <pkra> ... seems different from what accname usually draws on.
17:35:37 <pkra> ... feels more like guessing.
17:36:01 <pkra> bryan: I'd say it's problematic since it's subjective.
17:36:15 <Matt_King> q+
17:36:32 <pkra> ... in a dialog with multiple inputs, then you might get something on opening but tabbing through you won't get anything.
17:36:36 <jamesn> ack me
17:37:23 <pkra> jamesn: going back to matt's 3 possible solutions. I'm not sure if it's enough we say empty accessible names and associate it. WCAG only requires programmatic determinability.
17:37:29 <pkra> ... probably just a change in techniques.
17:37:48 <pkra> ... would need changes in checking tools.
17:37:51 <jamesn> ack Matt_King
17:38:40 <pkra> mattking: that's a good point. I think I agree that that's the right way to move forward. Screenreaders can then use that programmatic determination.
17:38:47 <pkra> ... that seems doable.
17:39:13 <pkra> jamesn: I'm not 100% sure I'm reading WCAG correctly.
17:39:29 <BGaraventa> q+
17:39:36 <pkra> mattking: I brought this over. I'm not sure I want to take this to WCAG right now.
17:39:52 <pkra> ... I do want to add a note on the example.
17:40:23 <pkra> ... also open a WCAG issue referencing the APG and ARIA minutes.
17:40:29 <pkra> ... should we leave this issue open?
17:40:43 <pkra> jamesn: yes until we have a conclusion from other areas.
17:40:51 <pkra> ... would love a note sooner rather than later.
17:41:04 <aardrian> +1 on a note in APG sooner rather than later.
17:41:11 <pkra> mattking: there's another issue from wilco in APG that's almost identical.
17:41:22 <pkra> jamesn: could we reach out to AT?
17:41:43 <pkra> ... to see if they'd be willing to infer.
17:42:03 <pkra> mattking: we could bring it up in aria-at.
17:42:07 <pkra> jamesn: that would be great.
17:42:32 <aardrian> Side question: "AT" means screen readers, right? How does this address voice control?
17:42:53 <jamesn> ack BGaraventa
17:43:01 <pkra> bryan: is this issue also for tables?
17:43:07 <pkra> jamesn: yes.
17:43:34 <pkra> bryan: and both aria and native tables acting the same?
17:43:45 <pkra> aardrian: yes.
17:44:15 <pkra> bryan: there's the header attribute there, no?
17:44:21 <pkra> aardrian: but not well supported.
17:44:26 <jamesn> q?
17:44:29 <pkra> zakim, next item
17:44:29 <Zakim> agendum 6 -- -> marquee and timer listed as live region roles but have intrinsic aria-live="off" https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2144 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:46:00 <pkra> jamesn: I find the current situation reasonable - only read out when on the elements but otherwise off.
17:46:23 <pkra> mario: but if I only get it when it's focused, then I don't need a live notification.
17:46:35 <pkra> jamesn: but you'd get the change while you're on it?
17:47:02 <pkra> mario: I would appreciate a way to get notifications without having to move to them.
17:47:21 <pkra> mattking: maybe we don't mean "focus" but more "screenreader point of regard"
17:47:32 <pkra> ... we don't have any language in the spec to explain that.
17:47:50 <pkra> ... I would like to have language that explains that.
17:47:58 <pkra> ... so you get updates when you're there.
17:48:04 <pkra> ... it also seems doable.
17:48:15 <pkra> ... I've noticed a lot of inconsistency across screenreaders and applications.
17:48:27 <pkra> ... sometimes they do work this way but I don't know if aria-live is involved.
17:48:53 <jamesn> q+
17:49:21 <pkra> daniel: to clarify, why is this necessary? If I have focus on the element and it changes I will get the update, no?
17:49:28 <pkra> mattking: I don't think so.
17:49:39 <pkra> jamesn: yes for progress bar.
17:49:47 <jcraig> q+
17:49:51 <pkra> daniel: time bar on multimedia and I think many others.
17:50:08 <pkra> jamesn: also a plain paragraph that updates?
17:50:17 <jamesn> ack me
17:50:35 <pkra> daniel: but usually they do, no?
17:50:38 <pkra> mattking: I don't think they do.
17:50:45 <jamesn> qv?
17:51:08 <pkra> bryan: for static elements (span/div), in JAWS when you arrow to it and it changes it usually isn't announced.
17:51:27 <pkra> ... even reading the current line it won't necessarily. Likely due to virtual buffers etc.
17:51:37 <jamesn> ack jcraig
17:51:44 <pkra> mattking: have you experimented with which JS changes would trigger what?
17:51:59 <pkra> jcraig: I agree with matt. When they do, I think there's extra work that's gone into it.
17:52:54 <pkra> ... progress bar, timer have special behaviors. Additionally, there's live region handling e.g., atomic, it won't follow the same rules if you're on leaf in a paragraph
17:53:13 <pkra> ... and some bold text earlier in the paragraph changes, you won't get an announcement.
17:53:32 <pkra> ... you might have a watch point in a screenreader, e.g., table cell for total.
17:54:05 <pkra> ... I think it would be a good change, specifying a new value that clarifies this.
17:54:48 <pkra> jamesn: why would we change off? Would that not cause unexpected changes?
17:55:09 <pkra> jcraig: ok, maybe leave off alone. I think people misunderstand off.
17:55:14 <Matt_King> present+
17:55:14 <pkra> jamesn: can we clarify it then?
17:55:20 <Matt_King> q?
17:55:33 <pkra> mario: better to make it silent, I think. off is not nice but a lot of people do it.
17:55:59 <pkra> jcraig: I think there's precedent. E.g., adding role none to avoid confusion with presentation.
17:56:04 <SoARIA> so "off" and "silent" would be the same, and we'd need to define "undefined" which is not part of the attribute's values now
17:56:09 <pkra> ... I think the problem is that people confuse off with undefined.
17:56:58 <pkra> mattking: to clarify: off means speak when focused or never?
17:57:09 <pkra> ... I don't like silence though because it isn't.
17:57:24 <pkra> ... the others mean they are spoken without being "on" the element.
17:57:26 <jamesn> zakim, close the queue
17:57:26 <Zakim> ok, jamesn, the speaker queue is closed
17:57:32 <jamesn> qv?
17:57:40 <pkra> ... but it should be a word that tells people that it will be announced when focused.
17:58:22 <pkra> jamesn: to wrap it up: a new value to mean what off is (much like none/presentation)
17:58:27 <pkra> mattking: do we need to define undefined?
17:58:36 <pkra> jamesn: I'm not sure.
17:59:01 <pkra> ... spec says "off" is the default.
17:59:08 <pkra> mattking: that's odd.
17:59:30 <pkra> jamesn: does AT do anything when "off"?
17:59:41 <pkra> bryan: it doesn't do anything.
17:59:46 <pkra> jcraig: I'm not sure.
17:59:57 <pkra> ... that's why I'm focused on testing...
18:00:08 <pkra> jamesn: can you do more research?
18:00:35 <pkra> mattking: I do know voiceover can tell me how many live regions are on the page. I'm pretty sure that this counts the ones that are off.
18:01:13 <pkra> zakim, end meeting.
18:01:13 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been aardrian, katez, giacomo-petri, SoARIA, Rahim, Adam_Page, keithamus, BGaraventa, Matt_King
18:01:15 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2
18:01:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-aria-minutes.html Zakim
18:01:23 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, pkra; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
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