16:00:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria-dive
16:00:30 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-aria-dive-irc
16:00:30 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:00:31 <Zakim> please title this meeting ("meeting: ..."), jamesn
16:00:39 <Adam_Page> Adam_Page has joined #aria-dive
16:03:35 <jamesn> scribe: JamesNurthen
16:03:48 <jamesn> scribe: jamesn
16:04:44 <jcraig> present+
16:04:53 <sarah> sarah has joined #aria-dive
16:05:41 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #ARIA-dive
16:05:47 <giacomo-petri> giacomo-petri has joined #aria-dive
16:05:55 <scotto> present+
16:05:56 <giacomo-petri> present+
16:06:01 <aardrian> present+
16:07:56 <BGaraventa> BGaraventa has joined #aria-dive
16:08:17 <Mario_Batusic0> Mario_Batusic0 has joined #aria-dive
16:09:08 <jamesn> sarah talking through background section of https://gist.github.com/smhigley/45783c28b47ef46818a4aaed3879528f
16:10:10 <Mario_Batusic0> present+
16:10:59 <jamesn> q+
16:12:11 <jamesn> jamesn: why is calculating the character count an accessibility issue
16:12:40 <Mario_Batusic0> q+
16:13:02 <jamesn> ack me
16:13:27 <jamesn> Mario_Batusic0: if i put a maxlength on an input field then the browser shows something visually?
16:13:53 <jamesn> sarah: no - but it will stop you typing more
16:14:02 <jamesn> q+
16:14:06 <jamesn> ack Mario_Batusic0
16:14:15 <jamesn> ack ma
16:14:57 <BGaraventa> +q
16:15:34 <jamesn> ack jamesn
16:17:37 <jamesn> jamesn: would we be better to look at aria-invalid and aria-errormessage to better support all sorts of scenarios
16:17:47 <scotto> q+
16:17:57 <giacomo-petri> q+
16:18:48 <jamesn> @@@ jamesn comments about tokens
16:18:55 <jamesn> ack BGaraventa
16:19:43 <jamesn> BGaraventa: contenteditable - what would qualify as content.
16:19:51 <jamesn> sarah: seems impossible
16:20:40 <Adam_Page> q+
16:21:00 <aardrian> Q+
16:21:05 <jamesn> ack scotto
16:21:55 <sarah> q+
16:22:00 <jamesn> scotto: contenteditable first. don't think we need to consider the complex ones first. Seems like an extra headache. Should scope to simple contenteditable.
16:22:19 <jcraig> q+ to discuss more on html input[maxlength]
16:22:47 <jamesn> scotto: What is the end goal? Is it to provide a consistent bonk or are we looking to solve the baseline plus the common extra of character count
16:23:23 <sarah> scott: I appreciate your desire for messy drama, but leave me out of it
16:23:32 <BGaraventa> bonk or bing, we should have a poll
16:23:50 <scotto> bonk-ing
16:23:59 <aardrian> boingk
16:24:12 <jamesn> scotto: did appreciate the suggestion for aria-invalid. But think that could make it messy again - don't want to have to worry about why something is invalid.
16:24:15 <jamesn> qv?
16:24:21 <jamesn> ack giacomo-petri
16:25:01 <jamesn> giacomo-petri: wanted to say what scott said about invalid. Was curious about the current behaviour. Was expecting a bonk but there are no details (tested using VO)
16:25:05 <jamesn> ack Adam_Page
16:25:48 <jamesn> Adam_Page: at least for simple cases outside contentediatable couldn't it be feasible for browsers to compute the current length to support bonking and the need for a bonk
16:26:07 <jcraig> q+ to respond to Adam that contenteditable input isn't itself interoperable
16:26:14 <jamesn> Adam_Page: could also have user preference settings for that
16:26:21 <jamesn> ack aardrian
16:27:27 <jcraig> q+ to respond to the aria-invalid suggestion too
16:27:41 <jcraig> q? v
16:27:46 <jamesn> aardrian: broadly on board with scott about contenteditable at least on a first pass. secondarily not a fan of adding a token to aria-invalid. From background for the most part the lack of exposure to screen reader users when hits the maxlength has overcomplicated things. Want to find a way to expose this on simple text fields and simple contenteditable
16:27:48 <jcraig> qv?
16:28:09 <jamesn> aardrian: most of the time it is when entering numbers and simple information into a limited system
16:28:13 <jamesn> qv?
16:28:17 <jamesn> ack sarah
16:28:42 <jamesn> sarah: probably biased in that i work on a lot of contenteditable with character counts
16:28:50 <jamesn> qq+
16:29:41 <jamesn> ack me
16:29:41 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to react to sarah
16:30:03 <jamesn> jamesn: clarifying questions about character counts on the contenteditable
16:31:27 <jamesn> sarah: normally want invalid to immediately read invalid but for character count want to let the user know with less importance
16:31:30 <jamesn> qv?
16:31:35 <jamesn> ack jcraig
16:31:35 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to discuss more on html input[maxlength] and to respond to Adam that contenteditable input isn't itself interoperable and to respond to the aria-invalid
16:31:38 <Zakim> ... suggestion too
16:31:56 <jamesn> jcraig:
16:32:37 <jamesn> jcraig: aria-invalid piling on
16:33:32 <jamesn> jcraig: would be great to standadise contenteditable - has been a decade of trying to standarise contenteditable content and a lot of it is still not there
16:34:42 <jamesn> jcraig: what is it that you want to happen when maxlength is hit. The key thing that hasn't been mentioned is that there is no output to a sighted user (and that isn't always apparent)
16:35:07 <giacomo-petri> q+
16:35:37 <jcraig> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=271831
16:35:38 <jamesn> jcraig: do we put in HTML-AAM some expectations about mapping these. At the moment there is not a lot of output to screen reader. I did file an issue (and a public webkit issue) to bonk when maxlength is hit
16:36:32 <jamesn> jcraig: first of all - should get maxlength working with AT that needs it
16:36:49 <jamesn> jcraig: sure there is no reason it hasn't just hasn't had priority
16:37:22 <jamesn> jcraig: if we considered for aria for things like the character countdown. We should consider the inverse of maxlength - i.e. charactersRemaining
16:37:39 <jamesn> jcraig: which the webapp could compute and would allow negatives
16:37:59 <jamesn> qv?
16:38:05 <jamesn> ack giacomo-petri
16:38:23 <jcraig> s/charactersRemaining/characters remaining or allowed chars remaining/
16:38:31 <jcraig> q+
16:38:37 <sarah> q+
16:38:51 <jcraig> q+ to respond to convey remaining on field status
16:39:05 <jamesn> giacomo-petri: maybe we should have an announcement when the input is focused
16:39:17 <jamesn> q+
16:39:35 <jamesn> giacomo-petri: a mechanism for them to work out how many they have entered
16:40:05 <jamesn> giacomo-petri: instead of announcing the number entered. Only announce on focus of the element
16:40:19 <jamesn> sarah: are you suggesting another aria attribute?
16:40:29 <jamesn> giacomo-petri: not sure
16:40:33 <jcraig> ack me
16:40:34 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to respond to convey remaining on field status
16:40:34 <jamesn> ack jcraig
16:42:25 <jamesn> jcraig: also hearing the maxlength - there is a goal to keep the interface simple rather than piling everything into a status message. That suggestion lends itself to a prescriptive UI. Feels like a less useful interface
16:42:51 <jamesn> jcraig: the default interface of maxlength doesn't tell you how many are available
16:43:09 <jamesn> ack sa
16:44:05 <jamesn> sarah: wanted to propose a path forward. Map the HTML attributes and events. Then for aria have an aria-remaining and maybe an aria-maxlength.
16:44:12 <jamesn> sarah: do we need both
16:45:20 <jamesn> jcraig: could both map to a single API
16:45:26 <jamesn> jcraig: I think we are in agreement
16:45:28 <jamesn> qv?
16:45:30 <Adam_Page> for
16:45:33 <jamesn> ack me
16:46:15 <sarah> Preliminary suggestion on approach:
16:46:15 <sarah> 1. Map html maxlength to metadata + events
16:46:15 <sarah> 2. create aria-maxlength to map metadata
16:46:15 <sarah> 3. create aria-remaining-style attr with same events mapping when it reaches or goes below 0
16:46:31 <jcraig> s/could both map to a single API/could map both maxlength and bikeshed-aria-remainingAllowedChars to a single platform API property/
16:46:48 <jcraig> ack me
16:47:00 <jamesn> jamesn: spoke of importance of shopping around to AT
16:47:20 <jamesn> jcraig: curious as to what events
16:47:46 <jamesn> * fire an event when the current char count reaches the maxlength
16:47:46 <jamesn> * fire an event whenever there is input that would cause the char count to exceed the maxlength
16:47:46 <jamesn> * fire an event whenever the char count changes
16:48:47 <jamesn> jcraig: "we" already fire events whenever the character count changes
16:49:03 <jamesn> jcraig: what other events do you need. are the events already firing enough
16:49:15 <jamesn> sarah: a specific event?
16:50:34 <jamesn> jcraig: just system events about when something changed. Probably selectionchange in this case. The screen reader or the engine could check at this point. If you wanted to change the api so the screen reader doesn't have to listen to character count. but that new event seems unnecessary.
16:50:52 <jamesn> doug: seems like the way to do it rather than creating a brand new event.
16:51:06 <jamesn> jcraig: unless that is creating a performance issue
16:51:23 <jamesn> jcraig: but don't know of a real world scenario.
16:51:35 <jamesn> qv?
16:52:12 <jcraig> q+ to say aria-maxlength unnecessary
16:52:15 <jcraig> ack m
16:52:18 <jamesn> sarah: will update the mappings maxlength and remainingCharacters. HTML maxlength will map to both. then shop to AT vendors
16:53:09 <jamesn> jcraig: was thinking only the native maxlength would need a mapping and then just have a single ARIA charactersRemaining. I don't think we need an aria-maxlength
16:54:47 <sarah> Final suggestion on approach:
16:54:47 <sarah> 1. Map html maxlength to metadata on chars remaining
16:54:47 <sarah> 3. create aria-remaining-style attr to map chars remaining (including negative values)
16:54:47 <sarah> 4. check with AT vendors on if they like the idea, and if they could use existing events to do useful things (e.g. bonks) with it
16:55:26 <jcraig> 1. create an empty mapping in HTML-AAM for input[maxlength] 2. propose a new aria-remainingchars and map it. to the same... 3. check with vendors
16:55:27 <jamesn> zakim, end meeting
16:55:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been jcraig, scotto, giacomo-petri, aardrian, Mario_Batusic
16:55:29 <Zakim> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:55:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-aria-dive-minutes.html Zakim
16:55:37 <Zakim> I am happy to have been of service, jamesn; please remember to excuse RRSAgent.  Goodbye
16:55:37 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria-dive
17:15:56 <BGaraventa> BGaraventa has left #aria-dive
17:26:33 <jcraig> s/what other events do you need. are the events already firing enough/not when, but what specific new event types do you need? the SR can query the remaining chars at any time, after any event. there are a number of events already firing, including on every char change. aren't those enough?/
17:26:42 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
17:26:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-aria-dive-minutes.html jcraig
17:33:53 <Adam_Page> present+
17:33:57 <Adam_Page> rrsagent, make minutes
17:33:58 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/28-aria-dive-minutes.html Adam_Page