18:00:34 RRSAgent has joined #aria-apg 18:00:38 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/19-aria-apg-irc 18:00:40 rrsagent, make log public 18:00:49 Zakim, start the meeting 18:00:49 RRSAgent, make logs Public 18:00:51 Meeting: ARIA Authoring Practices Task Force 18:01:13 present+ jugglinmike 18:05:43 zakim, agenda? 18:05:43 I see nothing on the agenda 18:05:47 jongund has joined #aria-apg 18:06:46 howard-e has joined #aria-apg 18:06:49 present+ 18:06:50 scribe+ jugglinmike 18:07:09 Topic: Setup and Review Agenda 18:07:09 CurtBellew has joined #aria-apg 18:07:19 Matt_King: Next meeting: March 26 18:07:57 Matt_King: Any requests for change to agenda? 18:08:06 Matt_King: hearing none, we'll plow ahead 18:09:04 present+ jongund 18:09:17 jongund: I'd like to talk about modernizing the codebase, actually 18:09:28 Matt_King: Sure; we'll talk about that after the first two planned agenda items 18:09:39 Topic: Publication status 18:09:47 Matt_King: Target April 1 for next publication. 18:10:14 Matt_King: There are a couple things that are close: work on the "feed", and also the combobox pull request in the next agenda item 18:10:27 howard-e: Sounds good to me. I'll be available then 18:10:33 Topic: Fix to make combobox labels clickable 18:10:44 Matt_King: Siri isn't here, so we'll skip this one today 18:11:03 Topic: Code quality plan 18:11:24 Matt_King: So jongund was thinking about looking across the APG, evaluating the current state of code quality 18:11:42 Matt_King: Were you thinking of putting together a plan to prioritize specific examples? 18:12:11 jongund: My more immediate concern is how we are not using media queries to honor forced colors 18:12:25 Matt_King: So we're talking about one specific dimension of quality 18:12:51 Matt_King: Related to that, you've been talking about writing guidance about supporting high-contrast mode 18:12:59 jongund: That's right 18:13:59 jongund: Some of our examples which are still using JavaScript prototype instead of classes--there were too many changes to address those in the context of bug fixes 18:14:29 jongund: I'd be happy to focus on supporting high-contrast mode, though 18:15:17 Matt_King: Could you start a "high-contrast mode" project by making a change to the quality-assurance report? 18:15:45 Matt_King: ...one that would surface the examples which don't support high-contrast mode but which ought to support it 18:15:54 jongund: I believe I already did that 18:17:32 Matt_King: Let me check the coverage and quality report... It says there are 31 examples with "high-contrast mode" documentation out of a total of 60 18:17:47 Matt_King: Is that what you were talking about? 18:18:05 jongund: I'll review that offline and get back to you 18:19:52 Matt_King: Send me an e-mail when you have something you'd like to talk about related to this, and then I'll add it to the agenda 18:20:02 jongund: Sounds good; it may be a few weeks from now 18:20:19 Topic: Should radio buttons activate with Enter? 18:20:29 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2954 18:21:34 Matt_King: I think this is an important question, partly because we used to have checkboxes which activated on "enter", and somebody pointed out almost this identical issue 18:21:45 Matt_King: e.g. how do they behave natively, etc. 18:21:54 Matt_King: We changed the checkbox so that it only activates on "space" 18:22:16 Matt_King: I'm interested in answering this question as soon as possible because at this moment in time, the "radio button" test plan is being revised in ARIA-AT 18:22:38 q+e 18:22:50 Matt_King: ...if we're going to take the "enter" key away from this, I'd like to remove the associated test now rather than have to update the ARIA-AT test plan again later 18:23:04 jongund: I'm okay with "spacebar" alone activating the radio 18:23:34 Matt_King: In Chrome, Cameron is saying that only the space bar activates native radio buttons 18:23:49 Matt_King: Should we look at what native radio buttons do in at least Safari? 18:24:16 Matt_King: Between Chrome and Safari, should we consider that "alignment"? Should we also consider Firefox? 18:24:55 Matt_King: Our pattern is already different from native radio buttons because in native radio buttons, "forward tab" and "backward tab" are not symmetrical operations. We've discussed this previously 18:25:23 Matt_King: The browsers don't treat it like a true composite the way that ARIA says it should be a true composite 18:25:48 q- 18:25:50 Matt_King: If you tab into the radio group, tab out of it, and then tab back into it, you don't end up in the same place 18:26:24 jongund: "Enter" submits the form in native radio buttons in Safari 18:27:19 jugglinmike: Is it worth checking what "enter" does on a radio button that isn't part of a form? 18:27:46 Matt_King: Yeah, probably. I'd hope it would be a "no-op" in that case, but we should check 18:29:23 jongund: In Safari, the "enter" key does nothing if there's no "form" element. The space bar still toggles in that case 18:29:43 Matt_King: I think the fact that there is two major browsers is compelling. I also think that consistency with checkbox is relevant 18:30:29 jongund: I don't think we should deviate from what browsers do if we don't have a good reason (e.g. like we have a good reason to deviate when it comes to "tab") 18:30:46 CurtBellew: I agree with this--"space bar" activates and "enter" does not 18:30:58 s/still toggles/still activates/ 18:33:06 Matt_King: If we are going to fix this, it requires a change to the code and the documentation. I'm happy to take on the editorial change in the pattern 18:33:15 Matt_King: Do we have any takers who would like to modify the example? 18:33:19 jongund: I can do that 18:33:55 Matt_King: We have two "radio" examples: one with active descendant and one with roving tab index 18:34:08 jongund: Just removing support for the "enter" key, right? 18:34:31 Matt_King: That's right. You can change both examples in the pull request, and I'll add the documentation changes to your patch 18:34:45 jongund: Do we consider this a bug fix? 18:34:59 Matt_King: I think this is a material change to guidance. I'm going to label it an enhancement 18:35:39 Matt_King: Is it really an enhancement, though? 18:36:21 jugglinmike: I think it comes down to whether the prior behavior was intentional. It seems like supporting "enter" was indeed intentional, and that would make this change an enhancement rather than a bug fix 18:36:27 Matt_King: I agree 18:36:37 Matt_King: I'm assigning myself and jongund 18:37:40 Topic: Combobox select vs focus issues 18:38:02 github: https://github.com/w3c/aria-practices/issues/2962 18:39:30 Matt_King: I did further exploration here, and essentially, our documentation about aria-activedescendents is not in-line with aria-selected 18:40:47 Matt_King: This issue could be broken out into multiple issues, but I think the thing we need to talk about right now is... comparing two examples: "select-only combobox" and "combobox with list-autocomplete" 18:42:04 combobox with autocomplete list: https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/apg/patterns/combobox/examples/combobox-autocomplete-list/ 18:42:24 Matt_King: If we compare these two, there are some differences that I'm not sure we want to have 18:43:12 Matt_King: for the editable combobox with list-autocomplete--the behavior if you go into the combobox, you find a list of territories. If you don't type and you just "down arrow", it opens the combobox, and you can go through all the states 18:43:44 Matt_King: ...in this case, were you just down-arrow, I don't believe aria-selected is changing as you move through the list. It only changes when you press "enter" 18:44:06 Matt_King: The feedback in this issue is that we ARE setting aria-selected but that we shouldn't be 18:46:53 Matt_King: The real question here is: should pressing an arrow when visual focus is in the list box change the value of aria-selected in the combobox with list-autocomplete? 18:47:13 Matt_King: Right now, it appears to be doing that. The feedback in this issue (if I'm reading it correctly) is that it should not. 18:47:49 CurtBellew: If I arrow through, I don't see the value changing. If I hit "tab", whatever I am "on" becomes the selection 18:47:57 Matt_King: Right, that's true in both examples we're considering 18:48:23 CurtBellew: For me, that makes it seem like it's selected. But I know I can hit the "escape" key to close it, and when I do, nothing is selected 18:49:15 Matt_King: We had a discussion about that behavior in particular. In the documentation of keyboard support for select-only combobox... It seems that "tab" is not listed. That seems like an oversight to me 18:49:47 Matt_King: I think it's an oversight because I know the current behavior for "tab" (that is: to "select and close") was an intentional behavior 18:50:04 Matt_King: Oh, pardon me. "tab" is documented 18:50:17 Matt_King: Never mind what I was saying about the oversight just now 18:51:02 Matt_King: It's an intentional behavior. It's documented in the select-only combobox, but it's not documented in the combobox with list-autocomplete 18:51:39 Matt_King: The person who raised this issue is perferring the behavior of the select-only combobox 18:51:53 Matt_King: They want to make the combobox in their component library work that way 18:52:10 Matt_King: At a minimum, they're saying that our documentation is inconsistent, and I 100% agree with that 18:52:24 Matt_King: I'm just not sure which behavior we want 18:53:13 CurtBellew: In select-only combobox, there is a visual checkmark to indicate selection state. That's not present in combobox with list-autocomplete 18:54:42 Matt_King: I think the primary question here is around aria-selected. 18:56:51 Matt_King: There's some strangeness in the list-autocomplete example. I observed it earlier, but I'm having trouble recalling it, now 18:57:31 CurtBellew: What is the benefit of changing aria-selected as I arrow through the list? Does it create problem to NOT set aria-selected as I arrow through? 18:57:49 Matt_King: I'm not sure, now that I think about it. It's like you almost don't need aria-selected at all 18:58:20 CurtBellew: On "select-only", you visually see what's selected. I think the aria-selected behavior makes sense there because it matches the visual experience 19:00:51 Matt_King: I think there's room for some asynchronous discussion here 19:02:11 Matt_King: We've at least recognized that there are inconsistencies. We should identify them formally and decide what to do from there. 19:02:26 Zakim, end the meeting 19:02:26 As of this point the attendees have been jugglinmike, howard-e, jongund 19:02:28 RRSAgent, please draft minutes v2 19:02:30 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/19-aria-apg-minutes.html Zakim 19:02:37 I am happy to have been of service, jugglinmike; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye 19:02:37 Zakim has left #aria-apg 19:02:40 present+ jongund 19:02:41 RRSAgent, leave 19:02:41 I see no action items