IRC log of wot-discovery on 2024-03-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:04:06 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wot-discovery
12:04:11 [RRSAgent]
logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/18-wot-discovery-irc
12:04:16 [kaz]
meeting: WoT Discovery
12:04:33 [kaz]
present+ Kaz_Ashimura, Michael_McCool, Jan_Romann
12:06:24 [JKRhb]
scribenick: JKRhb
12:06:32 [JKRhb]
topic: Minutes Review
12:06:53 [JKRhb]
mm: (reads through last meeting's minutes)
12:07:12 [JKRhb]
... actually, this is odd (refers to WoT-JP CG meeting)
12:07:24 [JKRhb]
... I think we ended up discussing the feedback in discovery, right?
12:07:35 [kaz]
agenda: https://www.w3.org/2024/03/11-wot-discovery-minutes.html Mar-11
12:07:39 [JKRhb]
kaz: Yeah, we discussed it in the discovery call
12:07:47 [kaz]
s/agenda: /-> /
12:07:55 [JKRhb]
mm: Let's add a note to the minutes then
12:08:05 [JKRhb]
... if there are no objections, minutes are approved
12:08:11 [kaz]
agenda https://www.w3.org/WoT/IG/wiki/WG_WoT_Discovery_WebConf#18_March_2024
12:08:13 [JKRhb]
No objections, minutes are approved
12:08:18 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
12:08:20 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:08:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/18-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
12:08:29 [JKRhb]
topic: Plan for Discovery Input
12:08:51 [JKRhb]
mm: Would like to talk briefly about the CG stuff
12:09:14 [JKRhb]
... later want to talk about issues, PRs, and planning, getting stuff done
12:10:10 [JKRhb]
mm: I think the most efficient way to deal with discovery input is to elect someone who writes summaries and brings up them in the call
12:10:28 [kaz]
q+
12:10:46 [JKRhb]
... so I would like to have someone from the WoT JP CG to summarize the discussion and then file issues against the relevant repositories
12:10:58 [kaz]
ack k
12:11:14 [kaz]
q+
12:11:14 [JKRhb]
kaz: Agree, that's what I also asked Ege and Mizushima-San regarding the inter-TF collaboration
12:11:43 [JKRhb]
mm: Yeah, and filing issues against the issue eventually would be the way eventually
12:12:21 [JKRhb]
kaz: The question is then also whether people should first talk to the UC Taskforce and generate issues from that, or whether they should file issues directly
12:12:26 [JKRhb]
... is there a preference?
12:12:31 [JKRhb]
mm: Both is possible
12:12:33 [kaz]
s/also asked/also have been asking/
12:13:00 [kaz]
s/issues directly/issues for each TF directly/
12:13:03 [JKRhb]
... filing a bug should be filed against the respective repository
12:13:20 [JKRhb]
... also depends on whether it is a functional or technical requirement
12:13:33 [kaz]
s/is there a preference?/think we need to ask them about their preference and availability for that purpose./
12:13:39 [kaz]
rrsagent, make log public
12:13:42 [JKRhb]
... first step, however, is to file an issue somewhere, so bring it to the issue tracker in general
12:13:46 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:13:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/18-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
12:14:14 [JKRhb]
... the presentation by Krellian had some relevant use cases regarding filtering and queries
12:14:21 [kaz]
q?
12:14:23 [kaz]
ack k
12:14:24 [kaz]
q+
12:14:26 [JKRhb]
... but that has not been formally written up yet
12:14:51 [JKRhb]
kaz: I wouldn't say everyone should have to join every CG meeting
12:15:01 [kaz]
ack k
12:15:04 [ktoumura]
ktoumura has joined #wot-discovery
12:15:13 [JKRhb]
... but we need to clarify the process of how input is being processed
12:15:21 [JKRhb]
mm: Exactly, should be discussed in the main call
12:15:26 [JKRhb]
topic: Issues
12:16:05 [JKRhb]
subtopic: DID repo PR 486
12:16:05 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:16:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/18-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
12:16:25 [kaz]
q?
12:16:27 [kaz]
q+
12:16:30 [JKRhb]
mm: Unfornatunately, this PR is still pending
12:16:37 [JKRhb]
... open for over a month now
12:16:53 [JKRhb]
kaz: Maybe we should send a reminder to them? Or ask them about the status?
12:17:04 [kaz]
i|Unfor|-> https://github.com/w3c/did-spec-registries/pull/486/files did-spec-registries PR 486 - Add WotThing and WotDirectory service types|
12:17:13 [JKRhb]
mm: Weirdly, it has been approved already
12:17:24 [JKRhb]
... (adds a comment asking for the status to the PR)
12:17:34 [JKRhb]
s/Unfornatunately/Unfortunately/
12:17:34 [kaz]
present+ Kunihiko_Toumura, Tomoaki_Mizushima
12:17:39 [kaz]
chair: McCool
12:18:19 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:18:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/18-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
12:18:26 [JKRhb]
... this should at least put it to the top of the "recently updated" list
12:18:33 [JKRhb]
topic: Planning
12:18:49 [JKRhb]
mm: Next, I wanted to talk about how we can make actual progress
12:19:00 [JKRhb]
... I think we have some clearly motivated work items
12:19:08 [JKRhb]
... would like to clean up the requirements
12:19:25 [JKRhb]
... I think we should start with cleaning up the issue tracker
12:19:38 [JKRhb]
subtopic: Issues
12:19:47 [JKRhb]
mm: We have 60 issues open
12:19:53 [JKRhb]
... should figure out what to do
12:20:08 [JKRhb]
... two new issues by Ege, which we should prioritize
12:20:24 [JKRhb]
... we have also two issues regarding ontologies, which I hope we can clean up soon
12:20:39 [JKRhb]
... we have another one regarding a work item, related to polling
12:20:46 [JKRhb]
... some other are editorial
12:21:10 [JKRhb]
... there is also some stuff related to work items which we could cross-reference
12:21:28 [JKRhb]
topic: Issues
12:21:37 [JKRhb]
subtopic: Issue 201
12:22:23 [JKRhb]
mm: (Applies the label "editorial" to the issue)
12:22:37 [JKRhb]
s/subtopic: Issues/topic: Issues/
12:22:47 [JKRhb]
s/topic: Issues//
12:23:08 [JKRhb]
subtopic: General Issue Review
12:23:33 [JKRhb]
s/General Issue Review/Issue 164/
12:23:55 [JKRhb]
mm: So one general question is how the process of updating TDs should happen
12:24:12 [JKRhb]
... current design assumes devices will update before the TTL expires
12:24:38 [JKRhb]
... this issue adds some responsibility to the TDD to ask the device for updates
12:24:49 [JKRhb]
... problem: devices that are not always online
12:24:56 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:24:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/18-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
12:25:04 [JKRhb]
... second problem: devices might not have a clock
12:25:33 [JKRhb]
... this is quite an old issue, but we need to discuss and understand polling vs. client-based updates
12:26:04 [kaz]
i|Applies|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/issues/201 Issue 201 - Sequence diagrams for DID based discovery approaches|
12:26:07 [JKRhb]
... if a device is behind a firewall, then we might only want to have a device make the update
12:26:24 [JKRhb]
... if we have something like MQTT then we could @@@
12:26:39 [kaz]
i|So one general|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/issues/164 Issue 164 - Consider adding "poll hook" to registration (pull keepalive)|
12:26:43 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:26:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/18-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
12:26:51 [JKRhb]
... (adds a comment to the issue)
12:27:06 [kaz]
q+
12:27:17 [JKRhb]
kaz: Minor clarification question:
12:27:33 [JKRhb]
s/kaz: Minor clarification question://
12:27:54 [JKRhb]
... question also regarding heartbeats
12:28:02 [kaz]
s/... if we have something like MQTT then we could @@@//
12:28:06 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:28:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/18-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
12:28:56 [JKRhb]
... (adds a link to issue 646 to the comment, which is related)
12:29:36 [JKRhb]
s/heartbeats/heartbeats, for example, there is more than one way to do this in MQTT/
12:29:58 [JKRhb]
... I believe our current mechanism for TTL does not require us to update the whole TD
12:30:22 [JKRhb]
... (looks into the Discovery specification)
12:30:53 [JKRhb]
... the mechanism to do a heartbeat is to submit an empty PATCH request
12:32:18 [JKRhb]
... (mentions in the comment that this might too complicated and another API entry point might be needed for a Thing to "check in" and to check if a Thing is available)
12:32:55 [JKRhb]
... so we have some metadata
12:33:21 [JKRhb]
... "created", "modified", "expires", "ttl", "retrieved"
12:33:54 [JKRhb]
... so there is some ambiguity here – if we send an empty PATCH request, should we update the "modified" date?
12:35:19 [JKRhb]
... I am a bit concerned, that it might be ambiguous whether submitting an update that does not change the TD or only changes the TTL constitutes a modification
12:35:30 [JKRhb]
... I think the document is not clear in this point
12:35:38 [JKRhb]
s/in/on/
12:35:49 [JKRhb]
... (further updates his comment)
12:36:03 [JKRhb]
s/updates/expands/
12:36:22 [JKRhb]
rrsagent, please draft the minutes
12:36:23 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/18-wot-discovery-minutes.html JKRhb
12:37:46 [kaz]
q+
12:38:07 [JKRhb]
... the spec should clarify that, so any change should update the modified date
12:38:17 [JKRhb]
kaz: I agree and started to wonder
12:38:46 [JKRhb]
... if I update a TD and a change impacts all consumers, should all consumers be informed about that?
12:39:05 [JKRhb]
s/TD/TTL of a TD/
12:39:19 [JKRhb]
mm: Yeah, I think we had some discussion about that
12:39:22 [kaz]
s/that?/that? That is a question around notification capability./
12:39:39 [JKRhb]
... and wondered if we should add a notification API for that
12:40:31 [JKRhb]
... we have an SSE in the document for that, but that is kind of awkward as you need to keep a connection open for that, so a WebHook might be better for that
12:40:45 [JKRhb]
kaz: Should be clarified in the 2.0 version
12:41:02 [JKRhb]
mm: Let me check if there is already an issue for that
12:41:17 [JKRhb]
... I think this relates to issue 468
12:41:39 [JKRhb]
... (adds a comment summarizing the discussion to that issue)
12:42:06 [JKRhb]
... (mentions using MQTT for eventing in the comment)
12:42:22 [JKRhb]
... has been a relatively recent discussion
12:42:32 [JKRhb]
... the latest comment is from April of last year
12:42:52 [JKRhb]
... is a topic of interest, but the answer is not as clear as "picking WebHooks"
12:43:04 [JKRhb]
... we might not additional mechanisms, like MQTT
12:43:21 [JKRhb]
... but that makes the implementation more complicated and potentially less interoperable
12:43:36 [JKRhb]
s/interoperable/compatible/
12:43:49 [JKRhb]
s/the implementation/implementations/
12:44:14 [JKRhb]
... (further expands his comment)
12:44:48 [JKRhb]
... (mentions that a TD could list the available mechanisms)
12:45:04 [JKRhb]
... so in the document, we have the Events API
12:45:43 [JKRhb]
... so currently, we have an event called thingCreated
12:46:05 [kaz]
s/Should be clarified in the 2.0 version/Should be clarified in the 2.0 version, but need some concrete Use Case description too./
12:46:33 [JKRhb]
... so for backward compatibility, we could add additional events for protocols or add additional forms
12:47:22 [JKRhb]
... in addition to SSE
12:47:47 [JKRhb]
mm: I think I should label some of these issues as having a higher priority
12:48:07 [JKRhb]
... what should the label be called?
12:48:53 [JKRhb]
... let me also add a link from issue 164 to issue 464 (?)
12:49:10 [JKRhb]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:49:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/18-wot-discovery-minutes.html JKRhb
12:49:41 [JKRhb]
s/ (?)//
12:50:08 [JKRhb]
mm: I think there are multiple answers here
12:50:38 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:50:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/18-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
12:50:45 [JKRhb]
... one was that Ben was unsure how to this. In the specification, the TDD is not responsible to do this
12:51:23 [JKRhb]
... in my original design, I was a thinking about a Registrar(?) who would register TDs with the directory
12:51:37 [JKRhb]
... that could then be discovered by a discoverer
12:51:48 [JKRhb]
... (adds a comment to issue 464 with a summary)
12:51:56 [kaz]
i|I think there|-> https://github.com/w3c/wot-discovery/issues/464 Issue 464 - How to keep Thing Descriptions updated in a Directory|
12:53:19 [kaz]
s/Registrar(?)/registrant/
12:55:27 [JKRhb]
q+
12:55:50 [kaz]
ack k
12:56:03 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:56:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/18-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
12:56:57 [JKRhb]
s/registrant/Registrar/
12:58:33 [JKRhb]
... the only problem is that the "Registrar" would need to know about which Things are registered, so it would act as a proxy, registering devices on their behalf
12:58:50 [kaz]
q+
12:58:50 [JKRhb]
s/act/need to act/
12:58:53 [JKRhb]
ack j
12:59:12 [kaz]
s/Registrar/"Registrar"/
12:59:55 [JKRhb]
... need to stop here, as we are out of time, need to figure out which ones relate to work items
13:00:21 [JKRhb]
... next time, we need to organize better
13:00:59 [JKRhb]
kaz: If we really want to introduce a new role like "Registrar", we also need to define this very clearly
13:01:29 [kaz]
[adjourned]
13:01:38 [kaz]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:01:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/18-wot-discovery-minutes.html kaz
13:02:10 [JKRhb]
i|[adjourned]|mm: Need to understand the problem more clearly, and understand if we need to introduce a new concept or can reuse an existing one|
13:02:16 [JKRhb]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:02:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/18-wot-discovery-minutes.html JKRhb
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