14:47:19 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 14:47:24 logging to https://www.w3.org/2024/03/14-i18n-irc 14:47:24 Zakim has joined #i18n 14:47:34 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 14:47:37 Chair: Addison Phillips 14:47:46 agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/6d544156-352c-46f2-b6ec-383b4e2462fb/20240314T150000/ 14:47:46 clear agenda 14:47:46 agenda+ Agenda Review 14:47:46 agenda+ Action Items 14:47:48 agenda+ Info Share 14:47:50 agenda+ RADAR Review 14:47:52 agenda+ Pending Issue Review 14:47:55 agenda+ I18N Glossary 14:47:57 agenda+ Discontinuing simple-ruby 14:47:59 agenda+ AOB? 14:48:05 agenda+ New lreq doc format 14:48:10 agenda+ Old version of LTLI 14:51:56 JcK has joined #i18n 14:53:59 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/14-i18n-minutes.html addison 14:55:24 present+ Addison 15:02:28 scribe: xfq 15:02:34 present+ 15:02:39 rrsagent, make minutes 15:02:41 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/14-i18n-minutes.html xfq 15:03:55 present+ r12a, Bert, atsushi, JcK 15:04:22 zakim, take up agendum 1 15:04:22 agendum 1 -- Agenda Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:04:32 agenda? 15:05:19 zakim, take up agendum 2 15:05:19 agendum 2 -- Action Items -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:05:22 gb, list open actions 15:05:23 Found actions in w3c/i18n-actions: #80, #79, #78, #77, #76, #75, #74, #72, #68, #53, #43, #35, #33, #18, #16, #12, #11, #8, #7, #4 15:05:29 #80 15:05:30 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/80 -> Action 80 reply to Lisa about A11Y-I18N CG proposal (on aphillips) due 2024-03-14 15:05:46 #79 15:05:47 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/79 -> Action 79 schedule a follow-up call with WHATNOT in ~April (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07 15:05:57 addison: will do #80 today 15:06:04 #78 15:06:05 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/78 -> Action 78 compare infra to i18n-glossary export list and report back (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07 15:06:20 ... #79, I'll goto find the issues for next month's call 15:06:22 #77 15:06:23 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/77 -> Action 77 create an issue against html requesting the list of named entities based on work in action 73 (on r12a) due 2024-03-07 15:06:32 ... #78, will discuss later 15:06:43 #76 15:06:45 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/76 -> Action 76 propose best practices for producers and for examples in specs in string-meta (on aphillips) due 2024-03-07 15:06:55 r12a: #77, not done yet 15:07:00 #75 15:07:00 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/75 -> Action 75 work on developing new specdev material about IDNs/domain names/etc. (on xfq) due 2024-02-29 15:07:22 #74 15:07:23 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/74 -> Action 74 ask korean folks about text-autospace and hangul (on xfq) due 2024-02-27 15:07:44 close #74 15:07:46 Closed -> issue #74 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/74 15:07:54 #72 15:07:54 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/72 -> Action 72 update specdev to match string-meta with string/block direction as appropriate (on aphillips) due 2024-02-22 15:08:10 #68 15:08:11 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/68 -> Action 68 follow up with florian about testing with kindle (on aphillips) due 2024-01-25 15:08:21 #53 15:08:21 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/53 -> Action 53 come up with a set of information CSS want the i18n group to provide support for generic font families (on frivoal, fantasai) due 2023-11-01 15:08:28 #43 15:08:28 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/43 -> Action 43 pull together the list of win/mac/etc apis for setting base direction and/or language (on aphillips) due 2023-09-18 15:08:40 #35 15:08:41 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/35 -> Action 35 make the edits of CSS #5478 (on fantasai) due 2023-08-30 15:08:47 #33 15:08:48 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/33 -> Action 33 Close issues marked `close?` or bring to WG for further review (on aphillips) 15:08:58 #18 15:08:59 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/18 -> Action 18 Have informal explanation sessions about counter style translations with csswg members (on frivoal, fantasai) due 18 Jul 2023 15:09:04 #16 15:09:06 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/16 -> Action 16 Keep track of line-breaking in Korean for i18n-discuss#11 (on aphillips) due 1 Jan 2024 15:09:10 #12 15:09:11 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/12 -> Action 12 Upgrade/edit the explainer to address issues raised by google (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023 15:09:15 #11 15:09:16 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/11 -> Action 11 Triage all css properties to determine which are logical, physical, or na by default (on frivoal) due 18 Jul 2023 15:09:23 #8 15:09:23 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/8 -> Action 8 Follow up on the status of Canvas and formatted text (on aphillips) due 18 Jul 2023 15:09:27 #7 15:09:27 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/7 -> Action 7 Remind shepherds to tend to their awaiting comment resolutions (Evergreen) (on aphillips, xfq, himorin, r12a, bert-github) due 18 Jul 2023 15:09:39 #5 15:09:40 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/5 -> CLOSED Action 5 Check into how to list questions at the top of a digest and/or improve lang enablement communications (on r12a) due 25 Jul 2023 15:09:46 #4 15:09:47 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/4 -> Action 4 Work with respec and bikeshed to provide the character markup template as easy-to-use markup (on r12a) due 27 Jul 2023 15:10:22 zakim, take up agendum 3 15:10:22 agendum 3 -- Info Share -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:10:41 r12a: I will try and remember to do #4 next week 15:11:57 Bert: xfq sent me an email about the history of i18n activity 15:12:19 ... I'm collecting the dates 15:12:35 addison: I'll be interested to see what you come up with 15:12:49 ... many happenings dating to the late nineties in the group 15:13:19 zakim, take up agendum 4 15:13:19 agendum 4 -- RADAR Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:13:33 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-request/projects/1 15:14:29 addison: we have a new request 15:14:36 ... Privacy Principles 15:14:59 ... this might be super amusing 15:15:28 ... 'be sure you never do anything to allow locale to be stripped off' 15:15:41 rrsagent, make minutes 15:15:42 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/14-i18n-minutes.html xfq 15:16:21 agenda? 15:16:37 zakim, take up agendum 5 15:16:37 agendum 5 -- Pending Issue Review -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:16:53 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Apending 15:17:22 addison: https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1835 is actually a PR related to a comment that we have 15:17:24 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1835 -> Issue 1835 Explicitly specify binary encoding for string truncation (by w3cbot) [pending] [tracker] [s:webauthn] 15:17:58 ... related to truncation 15:18:04 ... that's still in progress 15:18:04 w3c/i18n-activity#1834 15:18:05 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1834 -> Issue 1834 Clarify note on single character of mi as italic (by himorin) [pending] [s:mathml] 15:18:10 ... you're welcome to look at that 15:18:31 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-activity/issues/1834 15:18:41 atsushi: it's a minor point within their note 15:19:20 ... This transformation is via `text-transform: math-auto` and is to apply the italic table but not applying italic style 15:19:28 ... but it's not clear from their spec 15:19:45 addison: do they mean single character? 15:19:55 ... they say 'single letter' 15:20:12 ... but I can imagine the letter having an accent on it 15:20:20 ... and therefore be 2 code points 15:20:35 atsushi: this is the point I want to discuss with the group 15:20:49 addison: what is 'italic table'? 15:21:03 https://www.w3.org/TR/2023/WD-mathml-core-20231127/#italic-mappings 15:21:37 atsushi: it's common in maths and physics 15:21:47 ... similar character used in mathematical formula 15:21:51 addison: OK 15:22:00 ... and they have a mapping for the Unicode code points 15:22:17 ... they need to clarify this 15:23:09 addison: anybody else got a comment? 15:23:15 zakim, take up agendum 7 15:23:15 agendum 7 -- Discontinuing simple-ruby -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:23:20 ... since we're gonna do a full review when Bert is done 15:23:25 ... we can hold this for now 15:23:37 addison: we have a request from Kida-san 15:23:58 ... the JL-TF wants to stop maintaining it 15:24:22 ... and want to publish effectively a tombstone version of it 15:24:37 ... with some sort of box in it that says we've stopped developing this 15:24:47 ... florian sent a reply to that request 15:24:57 ... saying you don't wanna kill the document 15:25:08 https://www.w3.org/TR/simple-ruby/ 15:25:09 ... there might be valuable content 15:25:17 ... it is a note track document 15:25:34 ... and the note track does not have a discontinued state like the rec track 15:25:58 ... but we have other notes that we published in the past that have some sort of big red box at the top saying 15:26:08 ... this isn't being maintained anymore 15:26:29 q+ 15:26:32 ... Unicode in XML is an example 15:26:45 ack next 15:27:02 ... the document is a subset of ruby that we said is simple 15:28:01 ... it can say 'here is a description of simple ruby, work is underway to provide a more complete model' 15:28:12 ... if something else comes out later 15:28:22 ... we can come back and change what that note says 15:28:50 ... 'this is now a historical document. look over here for more info' 15:28:53 action: addison: write to kida-san about publishing simple-ruby as note with appropriate status text 15:29:00 Created -> action #81 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/81 15:29:00 JcK: that seems right to me 15:29:02 agenda? 15:29:11 rrsagent, make minutes 15:29:12 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/14-i18n-minutes.html xfq 15:29:18 zakim, take up agendum 9 15:29:18 agendum 9 -- New lreq doc format -- taken up [from addison] 15:29:25 https://w3c.github.io/sealreq/khmer/indexnew.html#h_lines_and_paragraphs 15:29:48 r12a: taking things a little further than I had last week 15:29:54 https://www.w3.org/TR/typography/#fonts 15:30:09 ... I started putting the links to the orthography notes and other relevant documents into a list format 15:30:26 ... and realized that actually we could do something quite useful here 15:30:45 ... we have another document called the Language enablement index 15:30:58 ... I don't know how many people actually look at that document 15:31:08 ... but I certainly keep forgetting to update it 15:31:52 ... so now I'm doing something similar in the lreq documents, and it allows more granular information or specific information that you can look up quite easily 15:32:04 https://www.w3.org/TR/typography/#fonts 15:32:11 ... I think it's much easier to remember to update these links 15:32:35 ... in the fonts section above 15:32:59 ... forget about the Chinese and Hangul Layout requirements for the time being, I'll come back to that in a sec 15:33:24 ... you have a list very much like we have in the Khmer document 15:33:55 ... that would make it much easier to maintain the typography thing without duplicating work 15:34:17 ... for clreq/jlreq/alreq, we may or may not add these list of links 15:34:41 ... in which case they might still have some links in the typography index 15:34:57 ... but what I'm talking about in particular here is for the new lreq documents 15:35:01 ... like Khmer 15:35:19 ... and Mongolian, Ethiopic, possibly Korean 15:35:51 ... if you look at section 6.2 https://w3c.github.io/sealreq/khmer/indexnew.html#h_phrase 15:36:00 ... it says 'See Ishida, Cambodian (Khmer) Orthography Notes/Phrase & section boundaries.' 15:36:12 ... I don't think that's the best approach 15:36:22 addison: this looks automatable 15:36:32 r12a: a large part of it, yes 15:36:52 addison: a bunch of the links here are generic links 15:37:20 ... and you could have a little piece of JSON to say here's the specific things 15:37:33 r12a: yes 15:37:36 ... it's also easy to have a flat document 15:37:44 ... from a template 15:38:02 ... and then all you have to do is to add the labels into the right places 15:38:38 ... that's actually one of the problems with the typography index at the moment is that the date is driven through JS 15:38:45 ... as it's getting bigger 15:39:05 ... it's becoming more of a problem to maintain the date in a separate file from the index page itself 15:39:06 action: richard: publish khmer lreq with new format 15:39:08 Created -> action #82 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/82 15:39:12 addison: any comments? 15:39:26 r12a: I propose that I complete the Khmer lreq document 15:39:31 ... and then publish that 15:39:59 zakim, take up agendum 10 15:39:59 agendum 10 -- Old version of LTLI -- taken up [from addison] 15:39:59 ... will do similar thing to the Tibetan lreq 15:40:30 https://www.w3.org/International/core/langtags/ 15:40:34 xfq: I found an old version of LTLI via a search engine 15:40:43 ... this page ^^ 15:40:50 ... was searching for 'language-range' on google 15:40:57 ... seems like an early draft version 15:41:15 ... since we have one on TR, propose we add a big red box pointing at LTLI 15:41:57 addison: if it weren't a cool URL, we would delete it with extreme prejudice 15:42:02 scribe+ addison 15:42:47 ... but since it exists, we might even consider hollowing it and just have a big red box 15:42:57 ... or a permanent redirect to LTLI 15:43:15 ... I don't think this document serves any purpose except to confuse people 15:43:33 ... this was a draft document 15:45:12 action: xfq: replace the old core/langtags document with a redirect and some appropriate text blurb 15:45:14 Created -> action #83 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/83 15:45:24 agenda? 15:45:35 zakim, take up agendum 6 15:45:35 agendum 6 -- I18N Glossary -- taken up [from agendabot] 15:46:29 addison: we have definitions and some of them have similar 15:46:41 ... but the nature of theirs and our glossary don't match 15:46:59 ... I owe this group a more detailed analysis 15:47:14 ... I think we want to do that sooner rather than later 15:47:25 ... so that we have have a follow up discussion with them 15:47:42 ... the key disconnect is that they're married to the JS string 15:47:51 ... when they refer to code units and such 15:48:03 ... we had a discussion with RDF-star about this 15:48:39 ... @@ byte-wise truncation of HTTP headers 15:49:02 ... when doing truncation the terminology in Infra doesn't quite match ours 15:49:07 ... so that's the status 15:49:15 ... I have a side thing 15:49:26 ... we talked about a couple of PRs last time 15:49:33 ... one of them is planes and blocks 15:52:03 ... the other is variation selector 15:52:12 +1 15:52:34 ... should we merge the variation selector PR? 15:52:44 ... let's merge it 15:52:44 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues 15:53:10 w3c/i18n-glossary#70 15:53:10 addison: we have some issues open 15:53:10 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/70 -> Issue 70 Definition of cursive scripts (by xfq) [enhancement] 15:54:48 [xfq explains the issue] 15:55:03 addison: my comments was the existing text doesn't claim to be exhaustive 15:55:45 ... but the problem is you have to always have an alert in your brain so when a new script emerges in the Unicode standard and it happens to be cursive 15:56:14 ... you have to go back here and complete the list 15:56:38 ... there may be other things already in Unicode that are not in that list 15:56:44 w3c/i18n-glossary#51 15:56:45 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/51 -> Issue 51 About Tashkil : long vowel marks are called Madd. (by ntounsi) [enhancement] 15:56:45 addison: shall we leave it alone? 15:57:02 ... do we need to say that the list is not exhaustive? 15:57:08 xfq: I'm OK with closing this issue with no changes 15:57:14 addison: OK 15:58:33 addison: #51 is a comment from Najib about long vowel marks 15:58:34 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/51 -> CLOSED Action 51 inform fuqiao and richard what to name the string-meta-2 repo (on aphillips) due 2023-10-12 15:58:40 ... about Tashkil 15:58:55 ... does somebody wanna take this on? 15:59:06 .... r12a, you provided a long comment about it 15:59:30 r12a: this is not a manual about how to write Arabic or anything like that 15:59:52 ... I would have to read the current definition again and think about what Najib is adjusting 16:00:07 addison: is there a better home for some of this information 16:00:21 r12a: you find it everywhere you look 16:00:28 ... Wikipedia and my orthography notes 16:00:37 ... it's probably in alreq too 16:00:55 ... which is another reason you don't necessarily need to put it there 16:01:45 action: richard: follow up on i18n-glossary#51 16:01:46 Created -> action #84 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/84 16:01:53 zakim, take up agendum 8 16:01:53 agendum 8 -- AOB? -- taken up [from agendabot] 16:02:03 #84 note: https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/51 16:02:03 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-glossary/issues/51 -> Issue 51 About Tashkil : long vowel marks are called Madd. (by ntounsi) [enhancement] 16:02:04 https://github.com/w3c/i18n-actions/issues/84 -> Action 84 follow up on i18n-glossary#51 (on r12a) due 2024-03-21 16:02:39 I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/14-i18n-minutes.html addison 16:02:46 zakim, who is here? 16:02:46 Present: Addison, xfq, r12a, Bert, atsushi, JcK 16:02:46 On IRC I see JcK, Zakim, RRSAgent, addison, r12a, atsushi, Rachael, hadleybeeman, alastairc, koji, Mek_, astearns, xfq, eemeli, gb, fantasai, csarven, mbinzo, imlostlmao, Github, 16:02:46 ... SintayewGashaw, BoKilgore, MojGraph, James1, clafase, matrix638, joraboi445, gonzu_15, florian, cwilso, Bert, hsivonen, agendabot