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16:57:58 <Zakim> RRSAgent, make logs Public
16:57:59 <Zakim> Meeting: ARIA WG
16:58:11 <spectranaut_> chair: ValerieYoung
16:58:20 <spectranaut_> agendabot, find agenda
16:58:20 <agendabot> spectranaut_, OK. This may take a minute...
16:58:21 <agendabot> agenda: https://www.w3.org/events/meetings/2b57854a-65cb-421e-b9e0-f9a8da31f160/20240314T130000/
16:58:21 <agendabot> clear agenda
16:58:21 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/4adWda1
16:58:21 <agendabot> agenda+ -> New PR Triage https://bit.ly/3TzoJgs
16:58:23 <agendabot> agenda+ -> WPT Open PRs https://bit.ly/wpt_a11y
16:58:26 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Deep Dive planning https://bit.ly/aria-meaty-topic-candidates
16:58:28 <agendabot> agenda+ -> I18N Review: aria-keyshortcuts needs attention? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2141
16:58:31 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Clarify whether author errors in "required accessibility parent/child" (formerly "required context") should be handled by UA https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2137
16:58:35 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Consider switching to ROLE_SYSTEM_LISTITEM on MSAA + IAccessible2 https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/223
16:58:42 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Discourage authors from using role=none/presentation on table cells (and maybe list items) https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2135
16:58:43 <agendabot> agenda+ -> Add nameFrom: heading steps to computation after spec addition ARIA PR #1860 is reviewed. https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/182
16:59:03 <spectranaut_> agenda?
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17:01:31 <katez> present+
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17:01:38 <Summer> present+
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17:03:08 <keithamus> present+
17:03:46 <jcraig> scribe: jcraig
17:03:49 <jcraig> zakim, take up item 1
17:03:49 <Zakim> agendum 1 -- -> New Issue Triage https://bit.ly/4adWda1 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:04:04 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/232
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17:04:14 <giacomo-petri> present+
17:04:32 <jcraig> spectranaut_: a few related issues about combobox
17:04:41 <jcraig> present+
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17:07:39 <jcraig> spectranaut_: mel, should we update the language to match changes in combobox?
17:07:57 <jamesn> agenda?
17:07:58 <jcraig> melsumner: not the only issue where this needs clarification due to cross-spec changes
17:08:16 <jcraig> spectranaut_: are there others specifically related to combobox?
17:08:41 <CurtBellew> present+
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17:08:48 <scotto> present+
17:08:51 <aardrian> present+
17:08:53 <jcraig> scotto: this one too https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2149
17:09:00 <CoryJoseph> Present+
17:09:08 <jcraig> spectranaut_: melsumner okay to assign to you?
17:09:25 <jcraig> melsumner: yes please
17:10:12 <jcraig> spectranaut_: no milestones in this repo.... will try to do that in the mono repo?
17:10:27 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2149
17:11:11 <jcraig> scotto: i don't think the listbox is required, but the prose says it is... returned value matters, not the option... probably just a prose change?
17:11:26 <jcraig> spectranaut_: prose change in accname right, not aria?
17:12:13 <jcraig> scotto: wanted to track that aria and accname conflict... so two trackers
17:12:53 <jcraig> spectranaut_: okay will review (and close?) the aria issue since accname will be handled in https://github.com/w3c/accname/issues/232
17:13:05 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/html-aam/issues/536
17:13:32 <jcraig> "HTML AAM: VoiceOver (AXAPI) mapping for optimum, low <meter> attributes"
17:13:53 <jcraig> scotto: will recruit the filer to make the spec change
17:15:18 <jcraig> jcraig: sounds good to me
17:15:29 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2147
17:15:43 <jcraig> Allow aria-flowto to have multiple ID references
17:16:49 <jcraig> pkra: alerted the filer to to the fact that flowto updates are shelved for the time being.
17:17:04 <jcraig> spectranaut_: do we need to keep this open?
17:17:50 <jcraig> mario: (phone breaking up) expresses support for improving support of flowto
17:19:05 <pkra> q+
17:19:36 <aardrian> Q+
17:19:59 <melsumner> should we say "needs design" ?
17:20:28 <spectranaut_> q?
17:20:35 <jcraig> jcraig: this is one step above deprecation because of shortcomings in the design of flowto
17:21:02 <jcraig> mario: mindmaps (and flowcharts) are problematic for SR users
17:21:04 <jcraig> q+
17:21:33 <pkra> q-
17:21:40 <jcraig> bryan: i agree... we have a UI that cannot be accessible yet
17:22:12 <jcraig> q+ to mention flowto is not the right solution for flowcharts or mindmaps... SVG connectors maybe
17:22:16 <jcraig> ack aardrian
17:22:53 <jcraig> aardrian: CSS WG is working on reading order
17:23:00 <jcraig> ack me
17:23:00 <Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention flowto is not the right solution for flowcharts or mindmaps... SVG connectors maybe
17:23:41 <Matt_King> Matt_King has joined #aria
17:23:49 <Matt_King> present+
17:23:55 <aardrian> CSS WG reading order issue: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/7387
17:23:58 <melsumner> flowto doesn't support it _yet_ but it could, it needs design.
17:24:13 <scotto> +1 to the point raised by jcraig that aria-flowto is likely not the best solution for these concepts.
17:24:25 <jamesn> q+ to state that maybe we could use aria-details instead of aria-flowto as that already supports multiple IDrefs - and the implementation shouldn't really be different (not on call so just to provoke discussion)
17:24:42 <aardrian> Chrome intent to prototype: https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/g/blink-dev/c/d9jIhcVw8zQ/m/aM5d-3P7AQAJ
17:24:48 <spectranaut_> jcraig: talks about svg connectors
17:24:48 <scotto> especially since being an ARIA only solution, it just means other non-ARIA accessibility solutions would also need to be added which would overlap / cause aria-flowto to be redundant
17:25:03 <spectranaut_> jcraig: and discusses how aria-flow to is not the right solution for the ose problems
17:25:13 <aardrian> CSS WG discussing applying this to tables (with my warning): https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9922
17:25:14 <spectranaut_> q?
17:25:30 <jamesn> ack me
17:25:30 <Zakim> jamesn, you wanted to state that maybe we could use aria-details instead of aria-flowto as that already supports multiple IDrefs - and the implementation shouldn't really be
17:25:33 <Zakim> ... different (not on call so just to provoke discussion)
17:26:43 <jcraig> jcraig: wanted to mention flowto is not the right solution for flowcharts or mindmaps... SVG connectors maybe
17:27:03 <jcraig> jamesn: wanted to state that maybe we could use aria-details instead of aria-flowto as that already supports multiple IDrefs - and the implementation shouldn't really be different (not on call so just to provoke discussion)
17:27:59 <spectranaut_> jcraig: example: if two different elements point to an element, then you get to that element, which one do you go "back" to?
17:28:10 <jcraig> bryan: can go backwards from flowto in JAWS
17:28:32 <jcraig> jcraig: but which do you go back to if there are two references... it's ambiguous
17:28:54 <jcraig> spectranaut_: ???
17:29:10 <jcraig> Matt_King: didn't list this as a priority for 2024 at TPAC
17:29:34 <jcraig> spectranaut_: let's mark this as a deep dive
17:29:50 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2148
17:29:59 <jcraig> Data grid example, form field missing accessible name
17:30:12 <jcraig> Matt_King: I transferred form APG, filed by Wilco
17:30:57 <jcraig> common practice fails validators, but there's ambiguity whether common practices should be accepted as a non-failure?
17:31:14 <jcraig> in this case there's a field in a cell... common use case
17:31:42 <jcraig> if there there row/col headers... does the field need a redundant label?
17:32:16 <jcraig> especially b/c html label/for can't have multiple references to every cell in the row or col
17:32:19 <melsumner> wouldn't you need some label for the rotor though?
17:32:36 <scotto> q+
17:32:42 <spectranaut_> ack scotto
17:32:46 <jcraig> Matt_King: feels like it needs agenda
17:33:15 <jcraig> scotto: does this belong in ARIA? what about WCAG? the automated tests are defined there...
17:33:18 <aardrian> +1 to Scott's suggestion this may be a WCAG issue, not in scope for ARIA
17:34:23 <jcraig> scotto: [rhetorical] are we trying to pass the validator, or is it more important to make sure the SR users understand this and don't hear redundancy?
17:35:00 <jcraig> Matt_King: or an AT thing.. if unlabeled field in a cell, label from headers.
17:35:23 <aardrian> Q+
17:35:34 <jcraig> if you can't code it in plain old semantic HTML, should it be the case that ARIA is required?
17:35:53 <jcraig> scotto: title attr might be the simplest native HTML solution
17:36:31 <jcraig> Matt_King: feel bad punting to WCAG without more thought...
17:36:32 <melsumner> q+ to state that the validators are trying to bring consistency for better results for end users, which is also important.
17:36:54 <jcraig> Matt_King: ARIA WG should state an opinion
17:36:58 <jcraig> ack aardrian
17:37:12 <melsumner> q-
17:37:20 <jcraig> can this be pushed to AccName, e.g. name from table headers
17:38:09 <jcraig> Matt_King: that should be part of the discussion once agenda-ed
17:38:37 <jamesn> +1 to Matt - not quite as simple as just table headers especially when there are mutliple fields in a cell
17:38:53 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2144
17:39:05 <jcraig> `marquee` and `timer` listed as live region roles but have intrinsic `aria-live="off"`
17:39:09 <jcraig> q+
17:40:11 <scotto> q+
17:40:29 <spectranaut_> jcraig: I think.. in the implementations, in safari, the goal is that something like a timer would be way to chatty. effectively what it was used for, a live-region value off, the screen reader focus is on the timer, you get the notifications
17:40:45 <spectranaut_> jcraig: this was a while ago, I'm not sure if it still this way or how the browsers are doing
17:41:58 <jcraig> Matt_King: I think it's funny b/c there's nothing in the live region spec that defines the "live region but only while you're on it" pattern... this was an artifact of getting ARIA 1.0 out the door.
17:42:02 <spectranaut_> ack scotto
17:42:02 <jcraig> ack scotto
17:42:07 <jcraig> ack me
17:43:15 <jcraig> scotto: confusion around "off" value of "live" since there's not a clear distinction between "off" and "undefined" since there is no "undefined" value
17:44:34 <jcraig> jcraig: also doesn't work with IDL reflection for undefined or invalid values.
17:45:05 <jcraig> james: sounds like a good place for a clarifying note detailing what we expect AT to do with this
17:45:21 <jcraig> s/james: /jamesn: /
17:45:38 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/224
17:45:46 <jcraig> https://github.com/w3c/core-aam/issues/224
17:45:57 <jcraig> Name and description change events clarification
17:46:50 <jcraig> scotto: discrepancy where name changes are announced to SRs etc... diffs b/w Browser and SR implementations
17:48:00 <spectranaut_> jcraig: good issue, from webkit perspective, voiceover tries to keep an eye on the label especially if a user event cause the label to change. this is not well documented
17:48:40 <melsumner> q+ to say we've been telling devs for a long time not to change aria-label once it hits the DOM. "Toggle play" instead of changing "play" to "pause"
17:49:34 <jcraig> bryan: description too?
17:49:45 <jcraig> scotto: yes, both name and desc
17:50:03 <melsumner> q-
17:50:16 <pkra> I have to drop off early. thanks and talk to you all next week.
17:50:17 <jcraig> bryan: dynamic tooltips would be a good thing to test with desc change events
17:50:51 <spectranaut_> jcraig: ARIA-AT might be interested?
17:51:02 <giacomo-petri> q+
17:51:17 <jcraig> jcraig: what about ARIA-AT tests for name change events?
17:51:40 <jcraig> Matt_King: trying to think if we have test cases. Could be good for the group to test.
17:51:44 <jcraig> ack giacomo-petri
17:51:44 <spectranaut_> ack giacomo-petri
17:52:43 <jcraig> giacomo-petri: exc: < href><img alt=""</a> even if you update the image alt via javascript, chrome did not get the name update for the label.
17:52:46 <giacomo-petri> I've found the ticket I opened, just FYI: https://issues.chromium.org/issues/40932452
17:52:55 <jcraig> Matt_King: would need test case basics
17:53:25 <jcraig> s/< href>/<a href>/
17:54:47 <spectranaut_> agenda?
17:56:04 <spectranaut_> zakim, take up item 5
17:56:04 <Zakim> agendum 5 -- -> I18N Review: aria-keyshortcuts needs attention? https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/2141 -- taken up [from agendabot]
17:56:24 <jcraig> q+
17:56:42 <scotto> q+
17:57:00 <spectranaut_> ack jcraig
17:57:01 <scotto> q-
17:58:30 <spectranaut_> jcraig: Here is the main concern, the assumption of the keyboard matches the language of the content. I proposed this to Aaron. and Aaron convinced me to drop the objection because lets say gmail or google docs -- in different locals, it uses local and languages to change what the keyshortcut is. this is localizable, it is expected that the webapp controls this based on language and locale. There might be a weird keyboard where
17:58:57 <spectranaut_> jcraig: you can't do the keyshortcut. google docs gets around this by having different shortcuts in locale and language.
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17:59:08 <spectranaut_> jcraig: the web app business logic should solve it
17:59:12 <spectranaut_> jcraig: not ARIA
17:59:20 <StefanS> present+
17:59:28 <spectranaut_> jcraig: if we are not stating that then we should
17:59:31 <spectranaut_> 1?
17:59:43 <spectranaut_> jcraig: maybe we can get one of the google contribtues to respond and add some prose
17:59:52 <scotto> just find it a little weird it's coming up now, but this has been in the spec since 1.1
18:00:44 <jcraig> zakim, please part
18:00:44 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been katez, Francis_Storr, Summer, Adam_Page, pkra, keithamus, giacomo-petri, jcraig, melsumner, CurtBellew, scotto, aardrian,
18:00:44 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aria
18:00:47 <Zakim> ... CoryJoseph, Matt_King, StefanS
18:00:50 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/14-aria-minutes.html jcraig
18:02:13 <jcraig> s/if we are not stating that then we should/if we are not stating that in the prose of the spec then we should/
18:02:49 <jcraig> s/contribtues/contributors/
18:02:55 <jcraig> rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/14-aria-minutes.html jcraig
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