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12:08:57 <tpac-breakout-bot> Meeting: Web features, Baseline status, and standardization signals
12:08:57 <tpac-breakout-bot> Chair: François Daoust, Patrick Brosset, Kadir Topal
12:08:57 <tpac-breakout-bot> Agenda: https://github.com/w3c/breakouts-day-2024/issues/22
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12:08:58 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, clear agenda
12:08:58 <Zakim> agenda cleared
12:08:58 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Pick a scribe
12:08:59 <Zakim> agendum 1 added
12:08:59 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Reminders: code of conduct, health policies, recorded session policy
12:08:59 <Zakim> agendum 2 added
12:08:59 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Goal of this session
12:09:01 <Zakim> agendum 3 added
12:09:01 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Discussion
12:09:01 <Zakim> agendum 4 added
12:09:01 <tpac-breakout-bot> Zakim, agenda+ Next steps / where discussion continues
12:09:02 <Zakim> agendum 5 added
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12:21:16 <tidoust> tidoust has changed the topic to: Breakout: Web features, Baseline status, and standardization signals - Koto - 14:00-15:00 UTC
12:25:07 <tidoust> zakim, clear agenda
12:25:07 <Zakim> agenda cleared
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13:58:51 <tidoust> present+ Francois_Daoust
13:59:08 <tidoust> scribe+ patrickbrosset
13:59:10 <tidoust> scribe+ tidoust
13:59:24 <dom> Present+
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14:03:17 <patrickbrosset> Francois: Let's get started. Some people here not from the WebDX CG, which is great. The first parte will be about WebDX.
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14:03:54 <Dingwei_> present+
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14:05:55 <patrickbrosset> ... [describing the web-features project, led by the WebDX CG]
14:08:49 <fantasai> fantasai has joined #web-features
14:10:01 <patrickbrosset> ... [going over the W3C spec process]
14:13:05 <patrickbrosset> ... [demoing some work in progress on tidoust/web-features-standardization github repo]
14:17:37 <marie> [https://github.com/tidoust/web-features-standardization]
14:18:57 <patrickbrosset> ... Moving on to the discussion part of the session.
14:20:09 <patrickbrosset> Vadmin: what about TC39/WhatWG stages mapping to baseline?
14:20:21 <patrickbrosset> Francois: For TC39, the notion of stages can probably be taken into account easily.
14:20:46 <patrickbrosset> ... For WHATWG, it may be harder. It's a live document, so not sure how things would work.
14:21:11 <patrickbrosset> Dom: The WHATWG stages, there's only one (3) that has a link to an implementation.
14:21:27 <patrickbrosset> ... TC39 stage 4 is where we'd expect baseline.
14:22:37 <patrickbrosset> ... One interesting lesson from web-features project, what does it mean for a feature to be baseline if it's not gone through the full process, or if it's not accessible in practice.
14:23:03 <patrickbrosset> ... Looking at web-features throughout their lifetime reveals a number of important questions.
14:24:13 <patrickbrosset> Anssi: do you consider the quality of implementation when thinking of baseline?
14:24:36 <patrickbrosset> ... it can be performance, ux, etc. WebGPU API for example which the software implementation might perform poorly.
14:24:43 <patrickbrosset> ... is this a consideration? Do developers care?
14:25:17 <patrickbrosset> Francois: Baseline status is meant to capture developer perspective. So if it's important to them, the status should capture it.
14:25:35 <patrickbrosset> ... The definition will continue evolving over time too. Every year.
14:25:51 <patrickbrosset> ... There could be a need to look into other things than what we look at today.
14:26:34 <patrickbrosset> ... We rely on BCD, and BCD has a flag saying a thing is partially implemented. So if there's an important bug, we'll flag it. Not sure about UX though.
14:26:50 <patrickbrosset> Dom: the point about accessibility is related here.
14:27:20 <patrickbrosset> Francois: good point. But also, the browser stops somewhere and then  assistive technology takes over.
14:27:49 <patrickbrosset> Anssi: can you extend BCD with additional fields? Can we extend the format to provide these additional information.
14:28:53 <patrickbrosset> Florian: For accessibility in particular. BCD only targets browsers right now. But BCD could contribute to accessibility-support.io.
14:29:09 <patrickbrosset> ... Or use the partial-implementation flag to contain some of this data.
14:29:35 <patrickbrosset> ... https://github.com/openwebdocs/project/issues/193
14:29:46 <dom> ack fantasai
14:30:25 <patrickbrosset> Fantasai: you had a diagram that baseline should happen after REC. But there are a lot of cases where a thing will be widely available way before that. And we can't get to REC because of bugs. This happens frequently.
14:30:25 <dom> q+
14:31:10 <patrickbrosset> Francois: totally agree. One question I have is: wondering if these signals will be useful. They will show the divergence between the developer perspective and the standardization process.
14:31:25 <patrickbrosset> ... at a minimum it signals something.
14:31:39 <patrickbrosset> Fantasai: it's useful to have this signal. It points to where we need more effort.
14:32:03 <patrickbrosset> Francois: my experience also is that WG, more and more, have a tight feedback loop where they implement the spec, and the code.
14:32:21 <patrickbrosset> ... delays the later stages. There's always something that remains to be done.
14:32:31 <patrickbrosset> ... Find it harder to push groups to move the REC.
14:33:00 <patrickbrosset> Fantasai: if the blocker is implementer experience, they should go to CR. That's what it's for.
14:33:28 <patrickbrosset> Francois: agreed. Not the feedback I'm seeing from WGs though.
14:34:16 <fantasai> scribe+
14:34:46 <patrickbrosset> Dom: on the divergence between standardization status and baseline status. In many cases it might be OK that a feature hasn't reached CR.
14:35:05 <patrickbrosset> ... In other cases it might be problematic, a11y, localization, etc. issues.
14:35:06 <fantasai> fantasai: I think we should push back against the feeling that a spec needs implementation experience to go to CR. We want groups to get wide review, and to have patent licensing in place, before wide deployment ideally, and going to CR ensure sthat.
14:36:25 <patrickbrosset> Dom: the gap between specs and impl creates a risk for the platform that doesn't feel great.
14:37:31 <patrickbrosset> Francois: Great point.
14:37:58 <patrickbrosset> ... question around whether we need to look at other signals. In this exploration, I'm not sure it revealed things we didn't know already.
14:37:59 <dom> q+
14:38:36 <patrickbrosset> ... Signals can be useful to give a perspective to other groups. But are there other signals we may try to compute?
14:38:54 <patrickbrosset> ... In the WebDX CG, we're also starting to looking into gathering developer signals in the broad sense.
14:39:23 <patrickbrosset> ... The overal goal of the project is to catalog the web features with identifiers. And if these identifiers are used across various sources, we can collect signals on features.
14:39:36 <patrickbrosset> ... Other thoughts that come to mind?
14:40:57 <patrickbrosset> Dom: Building on what you said earlier. If you're in the deep on some of these incubations, you know fully well the details.
14:41:17 <patrickbrosset> ... Computing this info on a regular basis, exposing to the right folks (not sure who yet), makes sure we keep ourselves accountable.
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14:41:45 <patrickbrosset> ... Having the infrastructure to emit the signals sounds like a good thing.
14:42:24 <patrickbrosset> Anssi: Wondering if you've been thinking about gathering signals for web devs who are app-centric? What do these folks need?
14:42:42 <patrickbrosset> ... Feel like there's a lot of interest. But not enough visibility into the pain points.
14:42:49 <patrickbrosset> ... is this in scope for signals?
14:42:58 <dom> https://github.com/web-platform-dx/developer-signals
14:43:30 <patrickbrosset> Francois: sounds like a useful thing to track. We need to target the developers who work on these types of apps (PWA) and get signals from them.
14:43:39 <dom> https://github.com/web-platform-dx/developer-research
14:43:45 <patrickbrosset> ... we may be able to get this via research. Which is a bit hard to conduct.
14:44:15 <patrickbrosset> Anssi: state of * surveys. Might be possible to drill into this feedback.
14:44:58 <patrickbrosset> Francois: We want to link this to web-features, definitely. Maybe there are other signals that can be more easily collected. Usage stats?
14:46:09 <patrickbrosset> Vadim: feature grouping is the key advantages from web-features. But challenge to create them and align them with BCD. How is this going?
14:46:33 <patrickbrosset> Francois: we have a lot of terminology. It's a challenge for sure. Lot's of discussions needed to converge on the definition of groups.
14:46:37 <dom> https://github.com/web-platform-dx/web-features/pulls 570 pull requests and counting
14:46:52 <patrickbrosset> ... Florian and Daniel, here, are doing a fantastic job on this. Can't thank them enough. Learning as we go.
14:47:19 <patrickbrosset> Daniel: I'll add one thing. For contemporary features, it's straightforward, we can see what people are talking about.
14:47:42 <patrickbrosset> ... the challenge is about generalizing this for the entire web platform. How do we combine this with historical facts.
14:48:08 <patrickbrosset> ... some sub parts of arrays used to be new, and separate, at some point in the past. Now they're just part of arrays.
14:48:27 <patrickbrosset> .. What's a feature? A thing you can use? How do you relate that the evolution of the web and standards?
14:49:15 <patrickbrosset> Anssi: responding to Kadir on the chat "can you talk to where you would use state of PWA"?
14:49:26 <patrickbrosset> ... we want to know what the gaps are for apps on the web.
14:49:59 <patrickbrosset> ... Every company has their own story, but we want to know what do developers really want for apps on the web.
14:50:50 <patrickbrosset> Florian: Two weeks ago we had Andreid from the gaming JS community on the WebDX call. This was very useful to have his perspective on surveys that he runs.
14:51:25 <dom> s/Andreid/Andrzej
14:51:30 <patrickbrosset> ... Talking to specific communities helps a lot. I would be very interested in hearing from them if they consider some gaming feature baseline for example.
14:52:04 <patrickbrosset> Anssi: agree. Would make baseline easier to relate to. Making it more concrete. What is the baseline for app developers, for game developers, etc. Probably a subset of the current baseline.
14:52:19 <patrickbrosset> Francois: need to extend the coverage of the web-features project first.
14:52:59 <patrickbrosset> Francois: In terms of signals. I'll try to make a dashboard visible somewhere.
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14:53:16 <patrickbrosset> ... trying to provide the signals to the relevant people when they need it.
14:53:25 <anssik> Present+ Anssi_Kostiainen
14:55:25 <tidoust> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:55:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2024/03/12-web-features-minutes.html tidoust
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20:39:57 <tidoust> RRSAgent, bye
20:39:57 <RRSAgent> I see no action items